No Secrets in BJJ ?

[MaFuYee]

i've noticed that when visiting BJJ/NHB web sites, often times they have techniques a-plenty shown/demonstrated on their site. - i've watched gracie instructional videos; and found the quality and openness in showing their art to be great.

however, i've also watched tons of CMA videos... and have always walked away with the impression, that they really don't want to show much of the system to the public. - maybe with the exception of wing chung videos. - often they will show a form, but never delve deeply into the meanings of the movements. - i'm sure there are others out there who know what i am talking about.

what i was wonder though, is, do you feel that BJJ has 'weakened' itself as an art by so openly teaching their art? - seems every KF magazine reading weekend warrior knows what a 'guard' is, etc. - where on the opposite end of the scale, there is tai chi, which most people have next to no understanding of, even though there are thousands of videos out on the market, and tons of books etc...

if a non-practitioner of BJJ at least familarizes themselves with BJJ techniques, then you can prepare youself to counter their techniques, while, the BJJ person really has no idea of what the other stylist is about. (except for styles like karate, muay thai, WC, TKD, etc. where more is known about them than say tungbei, or bajiquan.)

it is great for KF guys that BJJ people would like to think that it's all just about eye pokes (haha) and ripping ones nuts off. (*blush*)
(even if that is what newbie KF guys think it may be about.

[illusionfist]

I think that if you think you are a special "standing" art, you are gonna be sorely mistaken if you fight against a bjj'er or a groundfighter in general. This goes back to the old debate of "there are so many ways the human body can move." Grapplers and groundfighters all prepare for the same thing, which is closing the gap on a stand up guy. It doesn't matter if you do baji, hung gar, karate, or tae kwon do, you are pretty much going to stand the same way. The same goes for bjj and other groundfighting arts. We all have the same standing methods.

The point is that bjj guys train to close the gap and they know you can only throw a limited amount of things at them from certain positions.

Now for them selling themselves short, IMHO, i dont think they have. I mean yeah sure you know what a guard is, but can you use it? Do you know how to get passed it? It's fine and dandy if you know terminology and all that, but it doesn't mean jack ****e if you cant use it.

It doesn't matter how many theories and terms you know, experience is gonna save your butt more than anything.

Peace [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[DragonzRage]

when everybody is familiar with an effective art, that means everybody is working on the techniques and constantly making things better and improving upon the original art:)! It is the ignorant secretiveness and quiet attitude that Gung fu traditionalists have that makes their art weaker. If the Gracie family had never revealed their art in America, Bjj today would probably still be limited to the stuff Royce was using to destroy everyone in the early UFCs. All of the progress made through the years since Bjj was popularized would be non-existent!! As of now, Royce, who is limited to the techniques he's always been using, cannot even hold a candle to most of the best competitors out there. Royce and Rorion's Bjj may have been weakened since they haven't seemed to incorporate anything new since their rise to fame. But there are also plenty of other Bjj guys who have made so much progress that it is pretty amazing. Because of this exposure and free exchange of technique and research, Bjj (as well as martial arts in general) have been greatly strengthened.

IMHO, one of the reasons why Gung fu has become so backward and technically weak is because most sifus isolate themselves so much from the martial arts community that they lose the opportunity to learn more and enhance their arts through crosstraining and shared research. Many of the earlier UFC fighters were competitive kickboxers, freestyle wrestlers or grapplers experienced with fighting opponents in Brazil or Japan. None of them knew jacksh!t about Pa Kua, wing chun, five animals fist, etc...but that didn't stop them from beating all the Gung fu fighters senseless. The only Gung fu UFC competitor who didn't lose is mantis fighter Joel Sutton who competed in alternate bouts in UFC 6 and 7 and won both times. The only other Gung fu guy who even has any victories at all is Jason DeLucia. All the others went down in a matter of seconds. Go to the UFC site and read the stats of all the Gung fu fighters and you'll see. Gung fu was in fact originally one of the most represented styles in the UFC, yet it probably has the worst track record of any style. All these guys had the chance to learn about Bjj, grappling, etc and prepare properly before going in. Obviously they didn't take advantage of that opportunity. Whatever "deadly secrets" of Gung fu they might've had (and no don't gimme that eye gouging and groin crushing crap) obviously didn't amount to beans. Pa Kua practitioner Thomas Ramirez implied publicly that the Gracies feared him due to the "lack of knowledge of Pa Kua"...unfortunately Thomas was knocked out in something like five seconds by Don Frye in the first bout of UFC 8. Frye was trained in western boxing and wrestling which are so publicly accessible styles (especially in the USA!) that it seems extremely silly that so many martial artists weren't prepared to deal with his skills. In my opinion Gung fu sifus should get over themselves and their egos, crawl out of the cave they've been isolating themselves in, and participate in the free exchange of knowledge that has been going on in the martial arts community! Anyone who thinks this weakens an art is fooling themselves.

You won't lose much if you go only halfway, but you won't win much either.

[MaFuYee]

illus. - you missed my point.
i am asking, do BJJ schools hold back techniques, as in the movie "the Kung Fu Instructor", with Ti Lung. - or do they freely teach all of their techniques to anyone and everyone?

i tend to think they don't hold back with their teaching. - they even go as far as showing hundreds of techniques on their web sites.

... Traditionally, with CMA's, their techniques were jealously guarded, as, if another school were privy to that knowledge, they would 'lose an edge', so to speak, that of surprise.

* take UFC-I for instance; the majority of the contestants were ill prepared to deal with a guy who wants to roll around on the floor. (not to mention that most seemed to me to be second rate fighters.) - hence, gracie wins... now, go forward in time to UFC-III or IV, and now everybody knows exactly what to expect from BJJ'ers. - they were much more prepared to handle them. - just in that short period of time, they were able to modify their game plan, and do enough training to fare well against them.

this is not a question of can "my art" beat BJJ. please don't read any assumptions into my post. - although if you want to go into that... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
take the 'best' BJJ'er and the 'best' CMA'ist, and my money goes on CMA. (et tu? - if not, then why aren't you doing BJJ?)

** i wasn't saying that because some kid who buys IKF magazine, and reads a BJJ article, that he will be able to beat r.gracie... that is silly; and that you would use that as an argument is even sillier. - but, if all of their (BJJ) techniques, are freely available to anyone with $20 who wants to buy one of their videos, and they work hard and train to defeat their techniques, ... as those guys in the later UFC's did... then, the BJJ'ers lost a big edge, in my opinion. - how much harder would it have been for them to do the same, had they no idea what BJJ was about? - they would have had to use trial and error to learn how to beat them at their own game... that could have taken generations... but, instead they can go and spend $20 on a video, put out by their 'opponents' and have them teach them how to counter their own techniques. hehe [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

take for instance, any kung fu book on the market... they really don't show much, except for maybe a form, and some really basic applications. - then you compare that to a judo book; they will show you hundreds of throws, and actually present it in a way that a dedicated person can actually learn from it. - same with BJJ. not the case with most CMA's. (IMO)

*** and, i never said, "selling themselves short" - where do you come up with this stuff. - i said "weakened" their art, by making all their techniques 'common knowledge', or at least readily available. (let's see how you misquote me on that one. hehe)

Peace Outside...
you know what i'm say?
- Tai Mai Shu (search on napster)
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[MaFuYee]

DR:
actually, my take on why the gracies started to lose, is ... well, just look at those guys who started to compete in the later UFCs... they're HUGE!!! - they were just outmatched in strength, and training. (like you mentioned, western boxing... plus wrestling... striking + grappling, vs. just grappling.) the first UFC was a joke, as far as skill level of the competitors... (although that gireard gardeau look like one tough mofo.)

as far as the art "improving"... i don't know that i can agree with you there... i don't think there was any improvement in any art... just in the fighters.

in answer to you claims that kf was the most represented art... i haven't heard that one before... - although i can see that being the case. - as you already probably know, most kf guys are weekend warriors... myself included. (nothing wrong with that.) - if they thought they can step into a ring against highly trained and conditioned fighters... well, it's not my fault they are dumb.

* the thing about western boxing and wrestling that is good, is that it can be learned much quicker than most CMA's which tend to take a much longer time to get good at. (and that is only with many hours of daily dedication. - you can study half assed for 40 years, and still suck. - hey, i know, i'm well on my way there. - but, again, that is ok; i'm not looking to be the next UFC champ, my well being doesn't depend on MA. (thank god))

** but, be warned, don't think that a BJJ weekend warrior is much better off than a KF weekend warrior. - you are just kidding yourself if you think that doing 3-4 hrs a week of BJJ will enable you to beat any KF guy doing the same amount of training... it all comes down to "you" - not the style.

if a BJJ guy beats a KF guy, it is probably because of the amount of sweat they invested. - and remember that BJJ is more limited in scope that KF. (e.g. no weapons) - therefore they are able to gain proficiency in that kind of match, because that is all they do. - you look at CMA's - and a lot of times, it's not even all about fighting... it can encompas everything from health, to art, to spiritual enlightenment.

* if you think that CMA's should be more "open" in teaching - learn one, and then share with the rest of us. - simple. - i'm always interested in seeing the 'good stuff' from any martial art.

if you think about it deeper, you will realise that your reasoning that CMA's should be more open stems from your wanting to know them. (understandable enough) - but, to say that to do that would make them "stronger" or "better" is simply illogical. - they can study other arts, and broaden their knowledge, without disclosing any of their art. - that would make it "stonger" - no? - but to make the art public domain - means it would be easier for other stylists to defeat them. - right

[MaFuYee]

another point i would like to add.
even if some KF master reavealed his entire system for the public to see... wouldn't it do very little good to you without personal time and dedication to practice?

e.g. western boxing is not 'hidden' or 'secretive' - but how good of a boxer are you? - would you even dream of stepping into a ring against roy jones jr? - or oscar delahoya?

like you said, wrestling is well known, and openly taught, would you fight mark coleman?

- i study tai chi; i like seeing how other martial arts deal with situations, but, it is mainly from an intellectual point of view. - i don't care to learn/practice that other style. - when would i have time for that anyway? - i think it is better to stick to one style, - otherwise you may end up with a tasteless hodgepodge that isn't really good for much. (unless you practice 'combat tae bo' - then just drop it, and pick another style.) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[8stepsifu]

Kung Fu styles did all this stuff and still do. We still fight and learn the product of many centuries of fighting. There arent any secrets, there are things that take many years of practice to get the understanding of. We learn things that high ranking karate blackbelts learn within our first year of Kung Fu (Sifu Program). You can't accuse us of over secrecy there. We also don't hide in a basement. While kung fu practitioners are young, most of them fight. When your in your fourties and fifties, you don't anymore because your body doesn't heal as well. By the time you learn all the cool kung fu stuff, you are past your fighting prime, but that doesn't mean you can't be an awesome fighter. A fighter uses selected techniques, but doesn't have a system to pull from. What that means is that they have 20 awesome techniques that they train the hell out of. Maybe after 10 years or sooner, people figure it out and learn to fight against you (Sakuraba and the Gracies) Then it's back to your Sifu to drill the hell out of 10 new techniques so you can continue to be an awesome fighter. If you are a technique collecter from place to place, you will get your set of cool moves, but after people learn how to fight around them, your sunk. Thats the beauty of kung fu and any well developed system. After you are getting past your prime as a fighter, you can still learn all of the fighting system to make yourself better in old age, to preserve all the techniques and to pass them onto the next generation.
BTW If you didn't know already. Joes Sutton did 8 Step. He was an example of a Fighter that learned enough to kick everyone's ass, but didn't have a system.

[This message was edited by 8stepsifu on 11-18-00 at 10:37 PM.]

[DragonzRage]

"actually, my take on why the gracies started to lose, is ... well, just look at those guys who started to compete in the later UFCs... they're HUGE!!!"
Not true. Guys like Kimo, Teila Tuli and Dan Severn were all pretty big strong guys but that didn't save them from defeat in the early UFCs. Besides, Royce never lost in the UFC.

"they were just outmatched in strength, and training. (like you mentioned, western boxing... plus wrestling... striking + grappling, vs. just grappling.)"
Sakuraba doesn't have that much of a strength advantage on Royce...neither does Wallid Ismail for that matter. But when you talk about Royce being outmatched in training, I think you hit the nail right on the head. That was precisely my point.

"as far as the art "improving"... i don't know that i can agree with you there... i don't think there was any improvement in any art... just in the fighters."
I think that if the fighters keep getting better, that must mean that the training and hence, the arts are getting better. You have to remember that its not as if the early UFC promoters hand picked a bunch of losers for Royce to dessimate. There were some top ranked athletes in those competitions. The fact is that there really weren't very many great freestyle fighters back then. Right now there are very many great fighters and that is a testament to the fact that crosstraining has made the martial arts stronger.

"in answer to you claims that kf was the most represented art..."
It obviously was never THE most represented art..but if you look at the records of the early UFCs you'll see that it was one of them [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] There were more than a handful of Gung fu guys in the UFC.

"but, be warned, don't think that a BJJ weekend warrior is much better off than a KF weekend warrior. - you are just kidding yourself if you think that doing 3-4 hrs a week of BJJ will enable you to beat any KF guy doing the same amount of training... it all comes down to "you" -not the style."
LOL, I agree to a certain extent. I don't think a Bjj weekend warrior is any sort of tough guy. Neither is the Gung fu weekend warrior. But I must say that IMHO, for the most part the Bjj weekend warrior will still beat the Gung fu weekend warrior just because Bjj training (weekend warrior or not) is generally superior in terms of applicable fighting methods to traditional gung fu training (note the use of the word GENERALLY, hehe). I also totally agree that in the end how good you are depends solely on you, but I do think that your training (not necessarily your style) still plays a large role. You can put all the dedication you have into practicing sh!tty techniques unrealistically but in the end you'll still suck and you'll still get your arse kicked. On the other hand, if you are practicing practical techniques realistically then your dedication will not be in vain.


"if you think that CMA's should be more "open" in teaching - learn one, and then share with the rest of us."
Hehe, you obviously don't know me very well. I've pointed out on many occasions that I've had five yrs of Hung Ga training...doesn't that qualify [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img] ? I've also been doing Jun Fan for awhile. Jun Fan has a whole lot of Gung fu in it and it is in fact one of the methods I rely upon the most. The only reason I'm here instead of being confined to Mousel's forum is because I have a continued interest in Gung fu and the future direction of CMA.

" to say that to do that would make them "stronger" or "better" is simply illogical. -they can study other arts, and broaden their knowledge, without disclosing any of their art. - that would make it "stonger" - no?"
Yes it would make their art stronger, but not to the highest extent possible.

"but to make the art public domain - means it would be easier for other stylists to defeat them. - right"
IMHO, that is a very backward and outdated attitude towards practicing martial arts and the fact that there is so little good CMA around nowadays attests to that. When you share your best techniques with the rest of the Gung fu and MA community, everyone has the chance to research different ways to make the techniques more well rounded and find different ways they can work better for different people. Not to mention that people will be able to develop ways to incorporate the techniques into the general mixed martial arts spectrum. If everyone was so **** selfish about keeping their own stuff secret, then no one would be getting any better. If an opponent beats you only after learning your techniques and knowing what your strategies are, it is still a kind of a victory for your art. No matter how many Gracies Sakuraba beats, no mixed martial artist will ever deny the important impact Bjj has had and the progress they've made as martial artists due to this contribution. Regardless of how many kickboxers have been beaten by grapplers in the past, all the top fighters are using muay thai and boxing techniques in their arsenal. Through all the shared knowledge, countless numbers of open minded martial artists have made leaps and bounds in their training methods and overall skill. Through being a part of this spectrum, styles such as Bjj, muay thai, etc are made stronger, as are the martial arts in general, IMHO.

"e.g. western boxing is not 'hidden' or 'secretive' - but how good of a boxer are you? - would you even dream of stepping into a ring against roy jones jr? - or oscar delahoya?
like you said, wrestling is well known, and openly taught, would you fight mark coleman?"
No, i would not tangle with those guys unless I had a death wish. But the reason wy we can find phenomenal competitors such as them in their respective sports is because there is an EXTREMELY large pool of trained boxers and wrestlers out there...and that is in turn precisely due to the fact that boxing and wrestling are very widely known and widely practiced. If they were secret arts practiced only by a handful of old sifus and a small pool of ****y out of shape wallflower students, how many Colemans and DeLaHoya's do you think we'd be able to find?

There is only one martial art.

[illusionfist]

"what i was wonder though, is, do you feel that BJJ has 'weakened' itself as an art by so openly teaching their art? - seems every KF magazine reading weekend warrior knows what a 'guard' is, etc. "

This is the basis of the selling themselves short comment (i just used my own wording, i'm sorry). I was not misquoting you.

"i am asking, do BJJ schools hold back techniques, as in the movie "the Kung Fu Instructor", with Ti Lung. - or do they freely teach all of their techniques to anyone and everyone?"

You just contradicted the whole basis of your first post. They are two totally different questions.

"** i wasn't saying that because some kid who buys IKF magazine, and reads a BJJ article, that he will be able to beat r.gracie... that is silly; and that you would use that as an argument is even sillier"

No personal attacks from me, so why are you trying to make them towards me? I never insulted your intelligence, so why do it to me?

"if a non-practitioner of BJJ at least familarizes themselves with BJJ techniques, then you can prepare youself to counter their techniques, while, the BJJ person really has no idea of what the other stylist is about. (except for styles like karate, muay thai, WC, TKD, etc. where more is known about them than say tungbei, or bajiquan.)"

This paragraph is the basis of my initial post.

I'm sorry if you were offended by my post, but what i posted is what i gathered from your first question.

Peace [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[MaFuYee]

didn't mean to offend ya I.F. ...

re: You just contradicted the whole basis of your first post. They are two totally different questions.

yes, they are 2 questions, sorry to have confused you... but, if you disagree that BJJ'ers tend to show their enitre art, then how could you possibly agree that they 'weakened' themselves by revealing everything(?) - can't you see how the 2 questions are related? - one is the basis of the other.

re: No personal attacks from me, so why are you trying to make them towards me? I never insulted your intelligence, so why do it to me?

sorry again, i didn't know you were so sensitive... and you are mis-reading my posts again... i said that for you to use that argument was silly. - nowhere did i call you stupid.

* and i wasn't offended by your post in the least. i am just begining to question my own ability to articulate my thoughts... i thought i was being pretty clear. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]

[Paul DiMarino]

MaFuYee,

BJJ doesn't hide any of it's techniques at all, but I don't think that it weakens the art. Technical knowledge alone won't get you anywhere in BJJ. You can only be successful after you have developed the timing and sensitivity that can only come from hours upon end of rolling. Knowing sweeps, guard passes, pins and hold downs, and even submissions isn't enough. You have to be able to flow and feel exactly when you should execute the technique. Even holding a mount is an art unto itself. These things can only come from the experince gained from rolling with other skilled grapplers.

[MaFuYee]

DR:
re: if the fighters are getting better, it means the training has gotten better, therefore the art has gotten better. (paraphrased)

what art are you referring to? NHB fighting? UFC style? - i don't think the gracies have changed their art due to the UFC. - certainly muay thai hasn't all of a sudden incorporated grappling into it. (right?) - if all of a sudden, people started training harder, because of their motivation to win the UFC - that doesn't mean that anyone changed their training methods, only that people started training harder. - since i assume you may have meant that "general mixed MA" have added stuff to their regiment, ok, maybe so, and maybe they have gotten better... maybe one day, it'll be up to par with other KF styles such as hung gar, mantis, bak mei, choy lay fut, etc... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
(maybe like 200 years down the line... hahaha!)

re: BJJ weekend warrior will beat the KF weekend warrior. (paraphrased)

well, that is just a matter of opinion, isn't it. and for me to say the opposite, would also mean exactly as much, or as little.

re: 5 years of hung ga training.
maybe if you stuck with it for another 10-15 yrs... 5 years really doesn't mean much of anything, unless you were training about 6-8 hrs a day 5-7 days a week.

re: jun fan.
shoulda stuck with the hung ga. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

re: that is a very backward and outdated attitude towards practicing martial arts and the fact that
there is so little good CMA around nowadays attests to that.

isn't that a bit presumptuous to be calling something 'backwards and outdated' just because it isn't what you believe. - the christians thought every non-christian to have 'backwards and outdated' beliefs; and in their misguided folly decided to go around 'converting the savages'.
(at the cost of approx 10 million lives.)

- to not be able to understand the other side of the coin is a symptom of narrow mindedness. (so prevalent all over this world.)

* perhaps this isn't the best analogy, but here goes...

is it 'outdated and backwards' for the US not to share their 'stealth' technology, or their nuclear capabilities with everone? - it was just **** selfish of the US govt to not share their psychological warfare methods with every terrorist nation in the world. (not that the US isn't the worlds largest terrorist nation. - but they want to keep it that way.)

why should i care if 'general mixed martial artists' don't ever get beyond the basic pummeling methods, akin to a heavy rock tied to the end of a stick. - if i have a sword, and all they have is a stick... is it just '**** selfish' of me not to teach everyone else how to make a sword? - well that's just tough noogies on you, isn't it? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
(actually it can be argued that the knowledge is out there for anyone interested, but, no one wants to put the required time and effort into it. - isn't that why you quit hung ga after 5 years? - it was too difficult, or you didn't see the results you expected, even after spending 2-3 hrs a week training... - i'm being faceitous here, but hopefully you get my point.)

let's try and look at it this way:
BJJ'er: 'my heavy rock tied to stick' is superior to your 'sword' - simply because, look how easy it is to make. - your sword is hard as hell to make. it takes so long, and is so difficult... and most of these people who try to make a sword, end up with a flimsy piece of crap that my rock will smash... i tried to make a sword before, and i made a piece of crap, therefore swords must be useless

[MaFuYee]

Paul D:

i agree 100% with the part about "having the skill" as opposed to just "knowing the terms".

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

but, i do think that their art being so "open", did make it much easier for other stylists to beat them, in the later UFCs, because they were able to train against their techniques.

it's like a football team having the other guy's playbook. - you couldn't see that as an advantage?

[GinSueDog]

How has keeping the techniques in Kung Fu hidden helped Kung Fu? If anything I think it has hurt Kung Fu by dividing it and by providing a false sense of security. The main thing about BJJ is that the standard bar has always remained the same and the fact that inorder for you to meet that standard, you have to train hard through sparring.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[Master Po]

MaFuYee,

Are you frigin crazy.. BJJ is a rock on a stick??? Obviously you have never learned any BJJ. Most people who have even gone to one or two classes have come away realizing BJJ is one of the most advanced and technical martial arts concived. Now I'm not knocking what ever it is you do and I'm not saying you should "like" BJJ or even try it but to say it is primitive or brutal shows a lot of ignorance.

I dont think BJJ is any kind of "greatest art" because I dont think there isn't one. But to say it is not technical or incredibly intricate is just stupid.

Another thing is CMA people think that only Kung fu can be practiced by older people. Oviously no one is going to be entering UFC at 70. Still, look at Helio Gracie for instance. The guy was still teaching classes and grappling hard with strong young students well into his 70s. I hear he still likes to get onto the mat now and he is in his 80s. Believe it or not other arts are good for older people too [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]