Original 5 animal quan

[beiquan]

Tainan,

The "Shaolinsi zhi" or "Records of Shaolin Temple" in 22 juan, written in 17th century by Ye Feng has been published by Bejing chubanshe:

Title: Shao lin si zhi :
22 juan /
Author(s): Ye, Feng,; 1623-1687. ; Shi, Yizan.
Publication: [Beijing] : Beijing chu ban she,
Year: 1997, ?
Description: [1 v.]
Language: Chinese (Show vernacular)
Series: Si ku wei shou shu ji kan.; Di 9 ji ;; 6;

Would you by any chance have the Chinese title of the "Elucidation on Shaolin Stick, Spear, and Saber" that you mentioned?

thx
bq

[r.(shaolin)]

"The oldest known book from Shaolin, "Elucidation on Shaolin Stick, Spear an Saber" from 1616 credits their incredible stick fighting ability to the diety Jinnaluo."
---------------

I think the oldest document on Shaolin wushu is "Shaolin gunfa chan zong" by Cheng Zongyou. It was apparently written in around 1610.

A compilation of a number of manuals which included spear, and broadsword along with staff methods was published in 1612 under the name,
"Geng Yu Sheng Ji" by Cheng Zongyou as well.

r.

Beiquan do you have any thoughts on Feng Ye’s sources for the Bai Yufeng story?

[GeneChing]

You know, I had a really interesting experience with five animal research on my last trip. Since I've been studying Xingyi lately, I've been more interested in animal styles. But for the longest time, I rejected the Songshan Shaolin five animal form since it looked so simplistic. I suppose that being under a BSL master who aslo taught Hung Gar, well, Hung five animal is pretty intense and the Shaolin version just didn't live up to that. But I decided that since I didn't have a lot of training time, Shaolin five animal would be a good one to learn. Well, my Shaolin master was away at the time so I took the advice of many of my other friends at Shaolin and they all looked at me funny. They know that I'm more traditionally oriented, and they asked why I wanted to learn something modern instead of traditional Shaolin! According to them, the five animals were really more of a southern thing, but since then, popular notion has transferred it back to Songshan, so Songshan five animals was created to fill the myth. Now, keep in mind that this is just hearsay, advice of some trusted locals, so I can't say for sure.

BTW, Lao Long, Dr. Shahar's "Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice" is not a book, it's an article that was published in the Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies. And here's a little tease for you all. I'm picking Dr. Shahar up from the airport next week.

[Robert Young]

> According to them, the five animals were really more of a
> southern thing, but since then, popular notion has transferred
> it back to Songshan, so Songshan five animals was created to
> fill the myth.

Yes, only southern Shaolin systems practiced five animal forms. Northern Shaolin systems did not use five animal names. The only style from northern China I know is Xing-Yi that uses many animal's names. In the past, when people referred to SongShan shaolin styles, it meant northern Shaolin styles in general.

That's my 2 cents.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Gene

Gene wrote.
Songshan Shaolin five animal form since it looked so simplistic. . .

. . . According to them, the five animals were really more of a southern thing. . .
------
The Shaolin tradition that I practice includes Shaolin Wu Xing Quan as developed at Song Shan Shaolin by Jue Yuan Fang Chang and Chan master, Qiu Yue Chan Shi (aka. Bai Yufeng). Qiu Yue Chan Shi had a number of Lay Buddhist students and is considered the founding monk of our lay Shaolin lineage. It is an northern lineage which moved from the Loyang area to Beijing then to Shanghai in the early 1900's.
Wu Xing Quan as practiced by us includes 10 hand sets (single and dual) as well as two weapons sets. These forms are not simplistic and are based on animal imitation styles of the Sung dynasty practiced at Shaolin that predate these monk's arrival there. These Shaolin sets, like most advanced sets from Shaolin, incorporate wuxing (five elements) and bagua (eight tetragram).

I would point out that
Xingyiquan (the system) is believed to have its origins in Shanxi province from the early 1600s.
It’s early development is credited to Ji Jike (aka. Ji Longfeng), a martial artist who allegedly trained at the Shaolin Monastery in Henan province. Many common postures and terminology, such as ‘wu xing’ (five fist shapes) and’ ten animals shapes’ are common to both our lineage of Shaolin wushu and Xingyi
-----

Gene if you could possibly show the translation of
the stone Tang dynasty stele at Shaolin we did to Dr. Shahar and get his comments, I'll fax you a copy :-)

r.

ps. I'm not sure if I mentioned this to you, but the image you were so kind to send me, was missing the bottom two lines of characters. We were finally able to get them from Academica Sinica

[GeneChing]

I agree that there is historic evidence for five animals at Songshan Shaolin - I was just relating a recent experience. To be honest, it has me a bit confused. It makes me wonder if there's another five animals form at Songshan, other than this alledged modern wushu version. That would be expected for the way things work at Shaolin - show the tourists the wushu, save the traditional for the inner students. Unfortunately, my master wasn't there, so I wasn't as inner as I would have liked.

As for Dr. Shahar's opinion on the stele, funny you should ask, he did extensive work on the stele. Extensive. Steles are a speciality of his research. We discussed it when I met him at Shaolin and he believes that it is completely authentic, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Personally, that was very reassuring, since Dr. Shahar does have some more controversial theories about Shaolin. Have you read his paper yet? It's a must read for all serious Shaolin researchers. He was kind enough to send me his next paper, which is equally exciting and due to be published next year I beleive...

More on him to come.

[r.(shaolin)]

"Steles are a speciality of his research.:

Is it possible for you to show him how we translated it. If you can send me your fax number I'll send it and the accompaning notes and bibliography.
I would love to get his feedback on it.


"Have you read his paper yet?"

Yes I have.

[Robert Young]

I'm very interested to see northern Shaolin style five animal forms. Northern Shaolin systems are very different from Southern Shaolin styles. It should be very easy to identify whether a form belongs to northern or southern styles. Is there some pictures for video clips that I can take a look on the internet?

I'm a Long Fist guy, but I have learned some Southern forms. My teacher was a southern Chinese and learned mostly southern styles before he started Long Fist. We practice some southern style animal forms too. The way to practice them, southern and northern style, are quite different in my experience. It will be an eye opening for me to see northern Shaolin animal forms.

[Lao Long]

Dear Gene

BTW, Lao Long, Dr. Shahar's "Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice" is not a book, it's an article that was published in the Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies.

I think this is something that Master Tainan Mantis wrote not me.

[GeneChing]

r.(s): I'd be happy to do so. Our fax number here is 510-656-8844. Make sure it's attnetion to me. I have a ton of things I want to discuss with him, but he'll be here for a while, so I will get around to your translation. You can't imagine how much I've been looking forward to his visit. The time we spent at Shaolin together was way too short and we have hundreds of things to discuss.

ll: Whoops! You're right. My bad. Or rather, Tainan Mantis's bad.

[lac]

interesting note,
according to jarek`s research at www.chinafrominside.com; The original xingyi from Ji long feng, probably the Henan`s xinyi liuhe/ 10 animal xingyi of the moslem hui people, didn`t have any wuxing quan. The five elements are only present in the theory like in other northen cma. It is the Dai family with their Dai Xinyi that first incorporated wuxing quan (probably form their own family system) into their xinyi. From the Dai`s, it went into li laoneng to become 12 animal xingyi as we know now.

[r.(shaolin)]

I doubt that “Dai Xinyi was first to use the term 'wuxing quan'.

It is believed that Xingyi Quan was developed in the 1600s.
The Honan Shaolin Monastery developed an art based on 10 animals/five fist shapes and used wuxing and bagua and the term 'wuxing quan' during the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368). This is according to our verbal tradition and supported by at least by one Qing Dynasty document.

I checked out jarek`s web site and found:

The text on "Memorial Tablet of Mister Che Yizhai", written in 1925 says:

"Martial arts are the unique skills of China and are divided into Shaolin, Internal and External Schools. These arts were flourishing in our prefecture during the reigns of emperors Xianfeng (1851-1861) and Tongzhi (1862-1874) (and were practiced by) disciples of Wang Changle and Dai Wenxiong. (Wang) Changle was from Jiao (i.e. Jiaocheng County). Mister Dai had a nickname Er Lü and was from Qi (County). Dai Family Xinyiquan, passed within Dai Clan, belongs to Shaolin External branch.... )"

It would appear that there are early xingyi practitionars who credit at least some shaolin influence on their art - even if it was only terms :-))))

r.

[lac]

thank you r shaolin.
so there is another version of xingyi origin. the history of a chinese martial art is really vague.
i think xingyi comes from shaolin art (the same with chen tai chi and bagua), although other might certainly said that it is a wutang art. and there`s another thing called external and internal.

The Dai family might not be the first to use the term wuxing quan, but their the first one who incorporated wuxing quan into their xingyi practice. Infact, again i must refer to jarek`s research with the Dais, they said that in the beginning, there were only 3 fists (the 3 old fists) before they expand it into wuxing quan.

[Ironmantis]

bodhitree:

From my research and practice of the art Hung Gar has the entire five animal form.

I have seen the five animal form in Shaolin Kung fu and it is the same as the Hung Gar set (128 postture form).

Look at the Hung Gar system. Y9u may have some questions answered there.

I.M.
Shaolin Kungfu

[David Jamieson]

How are the 5 animals fighting sets related to the five animals frolics of qigong? And aren't they for the most part different animals?

were they synthisized at Shaolin or elsewhere?

cheers