How does ground forces in these to countries army compare to others in... say hand-to-hand combat? I heard that the chinese special forces is the toughest bunch there is. What do you think?
~K~
the super-duper supreme
How does ground forces in these to countries army compare to others in... say hand-to-hand combat? I heard that the chinese special forces is the toughest bunch there is. What do you think?
~K~
the super-duper supreme
Depends on what your definition of "tough" is, the exact nature of what they consider to be "special forces", and the true operational capabilities of those units.
Every country's military has a slightly different definition of what a special operation unit is, and what falls under the gamut of "special operation."
As an example, the Russian military during the Battle of Stalingrad in WW2 organized convict units that they sent out on "reconnaissance" missions that were basically suicide charges against fortified German positions so the Russian commanders could evalute the strengths of a particular German position since they had no way to recon by air. Zhukov called these convict forces "special units". Likewise, during the same time period, the SS fielded what they called "special forces" behind the German's own lines in a forward area that basically amounted to killing teams going through the countryside trying to ferret out partisans.
The reason why the U.S., Britain, France, Germany, etc. share the same definition and operational philosophy of "special forces" is because of the NATO crosstraining and information sharing between those countrys' special operations forces.
SEAL Team 6 was first organized along the lines of Germany's GSG-9 and Combat Swimmer units, then borrowed heavily from British SAS Close Quarters Battle and small unit "stack" formations when on assault.
Anyway, now that I've spouted off on all that, which in retrospect may not have much to do with your original question, the Chinese military itself, as a whole, is not considered "modern" by NATO standards. I'll have to do some more research on the PLA's special operation philosophy and approach.
So, thanks for posting the question -- it has sparked a learning endeavor.
"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious
Oh! BTW, after re-reading your question, the ROK (Republic of Korea) special forces are quite good, and VERY tough. My father-in-law spent quite a bit of time training with them when he was in the 5th Special Forces. ROK forces have been trained and equipped by the United States since before the Korean War.
"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious
When I was in the U.S. Marines we always heard talk from our drill instructors how the Korean "Rok Marines", as they were called, were the toughest trained Marine unit in the world.
These South Korean elite fighters would train in the mornings by runing barefoot in the snowy mountain peaks of Korea, the drill instructors riding behind them on snowmobiles, beating their legs with bamboo rods if they slowed down.
I met one once, at Camp Pendelton. He had come to help train our Marine Unit. He was a small, thin fellow, but he was one of the toughest men I have ever met. The storys I could tell you about this guy are unbelievable.
-Neal
"As we live a life of ease,
Everyone of us has all we need.
Sky of blue, and sea of green,
In our yellow submarine."
-the beatles
Having had the opportunity to actually train with several different chinese (PLA) military groups (including the bodyguard instructors for the Wu Jing) and having taught close combat to different forces I would have to say that the Chinese spend much more time and emphasis on martial arts than any other group I have seen. They also tend to be more tenacious simply because they lack many of the daily 'creature comforts' that we take for granted. While they do not have the overabundance of 'toys' that we see western forces using, their reconnaissance and amphibious forces are rated among some of the best in the world.
Given their emphasis on martial arts, their hand- to-hand is, in my opinion, superior to anything tought by any western force I've been exposed to (e.g. US, Canada, British, Israeli.) -- Just to clarify, I am not talking about the wushu that is often publicly demonstrated by Chinese army (demonstration) teams. The vast majority of martial arts used by specialized units in China are 'tailored' for the specific tasks these soldiers will be involved in.
For more info on what i am talking about, you can see two of my latest articles in the January 2001 issue of Kungfu Qigong magazine. Actually, the whole issue is devoted to this subject. (I don't get a kick back on extra mag sales either.)
I have also trained with military/commando instructors from the Nationalist amry including my two main teachers. Visit our web site: www.rovere.com for some historical chinese military martial arts articles.
"They also tend to be more tenacious simply because they lack many of the daily 'creature comforts' that we take for granted. While they do not have the overabundance of 'toys' that we see western forces using..."
--rovere
Does that make armies who are more technologically dependent weaker? Just wondering...
K. Mark Hoover
weaker in non-technologically dependent areas, perhaps. there's only so much you can devote yourself to, and if technology takes a large chunk out of your 'pie' so to speak, you won't have as much 'pie' to devote to non-technological pursuits (as a general rule).
Due to their lack of real life spec ops experience and operational knowledge in comparison to units such as Spetznaz or SAS, I would hesitate to believe that the Chinese have the toughest units. But they do have a good degree of serious hand to hand combat. Some time ago my dad bought me a Chinese VCD documentary of Chinese marines training. From what I saw they did A LOT of hardcore MA training that seemed obviously to be derived from traditional Changquan, Shuai Chiao and Chin na. They also do some crazy chi gung conditioning exercises. I wouldn't doubt that they are extremely tough. If all gung fu people trained the way i saw them training, the rest of the MA community would probably think gung fu guys are crazy. Still, I believe that certain Israeli and American units have equally effective hand to hand training. The Russian Spetznaz are even tougher!
Having served with the 2nd.INF. Divsion
and also JSA I can say that both sides(North and South)
train very hard.
Like any Army,units at the tip of the spear will
train harder,alot of memories,few words,sorry Im
stuck,the North Korean soliders had a rabid look
about them when they would train in hand to hand
fully aware we were watching.
Some of the better units on the South side
I saw were,
The Mad Monks of the JSA
2nd.INF Div.(USA)
White horse Div.
Blue Dragoon Div.
Capital Division
ROK(Republic of Korea)Marine units
All of the various special ops units.
Many others unamed,
thank god for Artillery and Air support.
http://www.korea.army.mil/
http://members.aol.com/panmunjom/panmunjo.html
http://www-2id.korea.army.mil/
[This message was edited by tnwingtsun on 03-21-01 at 02:26 PM.]
hey NealCameron, please tell some cool stories about that hardcore guy! :)
Anyone know more of any crazy drills like that snow-jogg? It's stuff like that Im after. :D
~K~
the super-duper supreme
China has invaded every one of its neighbors over the past 50 years, every one. They have had to fight in geographical areas ranging from Tibet to Viet Nam. I believe their spec ops soldiers have a lot of combat experience to draw upon.
.
~K~
the super-duper supreme
Good point Stranger.
Publisher
Great pic!Special South Korean martial arts demonstration
Emily Lewis Sep 30 11:00
AP Photo/Ahn Young-joon
Soldiers from the South Korean army special forces demonstrate their martial arts skills, during a rehearsal for the 67th anniversary of Armed Forces Day at the Gyeryong military headquarters in Gyeryong , South Korea.
Gene Ching
Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
Author of Shaolin Trips
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it appears Korean special forces also learning systema :
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