12 Keyword Formula

[mantis108]

I think Brendan's description of Gua is the same one that I tried to come across. So I agreed with both him and Tainan.

All I am saying is there are 2 ways of Gua. It would seem that HK 7* favor what I would called Wei Gua (outer hanging) since that gua makes use of the outer edge of the arm (pinky side). The one described by Brendan is what I would call Nei Gua (inner hanging) since it makes use of the inner edge (thumb side) more. Now whether it is accompanied by a strike of the other hand or it becomes a strike in itself, it would be better to further discuss that. But basically, the action or principle of Gua would be IMHO laid out above already by different people.

BTW, I don't mean that Wei Gua equals karate's raising hard block. So relax.

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

Bai Lung/Long,

You wrote:

So if you mean the move with the arm followed by a straight punch, it´s not kwa or Gua but diu tong choi! The movement is total different from kwa.
Sure, you can name every hard block with your arm kwa for simplification. But thats not the way ...

I dont know what your talking about. I dont name every or any hard block as Gua and its not necesarily a hard block anyway, even when it resembles the conventional 'upper-block'
also:

There is also:
tsa choi - a block with the inner part of the arm
sai choi - a hit with the inner part of the arm downwards (often followed by bong sao)
(diu) tong choi - a block with the inner part of the arm followed by a straight punch. The block also presses down the coming attacking arm with the fist to make the way free for your own punch...
and some more!

If your illustrating these in disagreement with my description of Gua you are slightly off track. Everything you have named here are 'Chui' (and one 'Pi'), they are strikes. Yes, they are often accompanied by blocks and can also be used as blocks but are primarily 'hits'. These are not related to what I was talking about. I am not confused about the uses of these methods in any way.


In my opion there is only one kwa/Gua: a block upwards with slight variations ... nothing more!

Thats o.k, if thats what you've been taught you stick to it. In my opinion and every coach/shifu I have trained with; there are several variations of every principle. And the key point is; they are 'principles'.
hope that wasn't too rude of a response.
yours,
B.T

[German Bai Lung]

Hello Brandon,

no it was not too rude. If I can´t get any critism ohhh poor me!

So, when you wrote there be variations of any principle: I agree 100%! If there were no variations: that style will not work in combat!

But I´d tryed to make that clear in the other thread about gua.

Sorry for my bad english, I think thats a reason for some misunderstanding.

Hey, won´t some guys of you spend your vacations in Germany? I would like to train with you and diskuss the principles that way ..

[MantisifuFW]

All,

Forgive my being out of communication but my computer burst into flames a couple of days ago and I have been in recovery mode. In my understanding of the Noi Gua Sao it is for WHF practitioners the second of the three palms of the Mo Poon Sao. This palm is seen in other techniques also.

Hope this helps,

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung So lets speak about the applikation: why does mo pun jeung used as a veriation of ou lou tsai ...
or am I wrong once again?

For me thats totaly different:

like young mantis said: mpj is circular and hitting the oponent with the hand from aside.

ou lou tsai controls the oponents arm and hitting him direct in the face!

If you know the "14 Roads" form, I believe it is the technique used in #14. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

There is a big difference between Ou-Lou-Tsai and the hand technique used in #14 of the "14 Roads" form. The "14 Roads" form is also referred to as "The Basic 14".

[MantisifuFW]

Mantisben,

Indeed you are correct. Mo Poon Sao is very different from Au Lau Choi and is where you say it occurs in Sup Say Lo, (14 Roads).

The coiling motions of the Au Lau Choi and the spiriling motions of Mo Poon Sao are very different though the opportunities for using them are similar. That the different schools of Tanglang use differnt criteria for using them is not unexpected.

It is in the use of these techniques that the advantages of one over another becomes clear.

BTW, thank you for your insightful post on my article on the research into the origins of Tanglang. I will answer your questions soon. Unlike others who lack your intelect and reading ability, there is much to say. And I will tell you, (and others) in the coming days.

Sincerely,

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by keef321
Hi Steve,
...
Upward Block - To hang in mid-air, as often seen with upward block and punch, any other examples anyone?
...

Keef

In my own thinking of Kwa as in "To hang in mid-air...", I've thought of using it in this way:

When someone grabs my right wrist/forearm with their right-hand, I simply "lift" my right-arm in the "upward-block" position with the opponent holding onto my arm, exposing their ribs/chest and throw a left straight-punch to their body (ribs, chest, solar-plexus). Naturally, as my right-arm goes up, the left fist shoots out, simultaneously.

The "lifting" of my arm lifts/hangs/suspends the opponents arm and I (attempt) to execute the "Black Tiger Steals the Heart" technique. I'm sure there are other PM strikes that could be applied at this point (and beyond this point).

This may not be "Kwa", but if "Kwa" means to "Hang/Suspend in mid-air", then me lifting my arm while the opponent is gripping it would effectively "Hang/suspend" the opponents arm in "mid-air" as well as my own. "Kwa" used in this way is not a block, but it is creating an opening to strike.

This technique has worked for me against opponents that grab my arms to prevent me from hitting them.

Of course, there are counters to this technique, as well as inappropriate times to use it.

I hope this was helpful, and if it isn't "Kwa", I eagerly await correction from anyone/everyone.

I also use it as an upward-block, but I haven't been able to use it comfortably as an upward-block. That is my own fault though.

[German Bai Lung]

Hello Mantisben,

the way you descibe Gua is a little bit like: tao sam choi: just re-grab your opponant and move your shoulder with the punch! You will be amazed about the power ...

For Gua as applikation in combat: I usually don´t teach it for fighting as very active move. When you got a good cover with both arms, just lift one a little bit and immediatly start the counter attack. thats it: gua!

[mantisben]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
Hello Mantisben,

the way you descibe Gua is a little bit like: tao sam choi: just re-grab your opponant and move your shoulder with the punch! You will be amazed about the power ...

Is Tao Sam Choi the 3rd punch of #5 in the "14 Roads" form? Or the 4th punch of the 2nd road in the form "Spear Hand"? If it is, then I'll have to say "yes".

Still, I don't always re-grab the opponents arm because I get the same result from just lifting my arm enough to create a small opening. I will re-grab the opponents arm if I think my grip is stronger than my opponents.

The up-side of the way I do the technique is, for me, it is simpler in that I don't have to concern myself with securing a grab.

One of the down-sides of the way I do the technique is the opponent has to be gripping MY arm in order for me to lift HIS arm. If he releases my arm before I lift his arm, then I didn't create the opening I wanted, and my straight-punch to the body will be easily neutralized, effectively flushing my technique down the toilet... It wouldn't be the first time, either.

Another down-side is if I try to lift my arm, and the opponent just pulls down on my arm, then my punch to the body is also neutralized. It is much easier for my opponent to pull down my arm than for me to lift up his arm ( in general). It may have something to do with gravity.

I'm sure there are at least 15 other down-sides to the way I do this technique. I only use this technique because it has worked for me on more than one occasion, although not consistently (sparring only).

One other thing I'd like to mention about this technique is that I associate it (I could be wrong about this) with #7 of the "12 Flexible Methods" in the Lee Kam Wing's book where it reads "Attacking with one hand while the other is being grappled".

[MantisifuFW]

Mantisben,

I do not believe that you are off the mark though I would like to see and feel what you are doing.

Such creativity is a part of the path we all take. Lord knows I have started down paths, been corrected by my sifu and started again many times.

Let's get on to other keywords!

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
Mantisben,

I do not believe that you are off the mark though I would like to see and feel what you are doing.

Such creativity is a part of the path we all take. Lord knows I have started down paths, been corrected by my sifu and started again many times.


Steve Cottrell

Thank you Mr. Cottrell for your kind input. Unfortunately, I don't have anyone to spar with at this time to see if I can still use it effectively. All I do now is practice my forms, hit my punching bag, stretch out, lift weights, and run. Neither to any extreme.

Let's get on to other keywords!

I have a question about 2 other keywords: Is "Ou" as in "Ou-Lou-Tsai" the same as "Tiao" as in "Tiao Chin"?

I know the difference between "Ou-Lou-Tsai" and "Tiao Chin", but I'm not super-clear on the difference between "Ou" and "Tiao".

I'm thinking "Ou" is the type of grab used before the first punch (Tung Choi) in the 3rd road of "Spear Hand" (WHF), and "Tiao" is the type of grab used before the hammer-fist in the 3rd technique of the 2nd road of Bung Bo.

I'm leaning towards them being different, but would like to know why from someone more knowledgable about PM than me.

[keef321]

Mantisben,

Thanx 4 your interpretation on the GWA, I had not thought of it in that context :-) making an opening via a Gwa Action, great stuff.

Look forward to further Keyword discussion

Keef

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by mantisben
I know the difference between "Ou-Lou-Tsai" and "Tiao Chin", but I'm not super-clear on the difference between "Ou" and "Tiao".

Ou or "Au" in Cantonese is different from Tiao Shou (or Dieu Sao in Cantonese).

WHF noted three types of hook hand. One is what he called a "Hoy Sao" or a tap with the hook hand that did very little grabbing at all. It's only purpose was to deflect or misplace an opponent's hand. The second was a hook that grabbed for an instant then released. This one was called a Tiao or Dieu. This one would grab for an instant then strike or grab enough to restrain for an instant while the other hand struck. The third is the Au. The Au was a full restraining grab with the hook hand that facilitated either Tsai or Choi the sudden sharp jerking of an opponent's arm or that could go into Chin Na, (Kum Na).

There are no doubt other distinctions that I do not know of but that's my limited take on the subject. Hope it helps.

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW


Ou or "Au" in Cantonese is different from Tiao Shou (or Dieu Sao in Cantonese).

WHF noted three types of hook hand. One is what he called a "Hoy Sao" or a tap with the hook hand that did very little grabbing at all. It's only purpose was to deflect or misplace an opponent's hand. The second was a hook that grabbed for an instant then released. This one was called a Tiao or Dieu. This one would grab for an instant then strike or grab enough to restrain for an instant while the other hand struck. The third is the Au. The Au was a full restraining grab with the hook hand that facilitated either Tsai or Choi the sudden sharp jerking of an opponent's arm or that could go into Chin Na, (Kum Na).

There are no doubt other distinctions that I do not know of but that's my limited take on the subject. Hope it helps.

Steve Cottrell

Thank you. That was very helpful.