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Thread: Islamic Knife Fighting

  1. #1
    mubarazaad Guest

    Islamic Knife Fighting

    For all of you who are interested in Islamic Knife fighting and combat science check out:

    <A HREF="http://www.rimah.cjb.net" TARGET="_blank">www.rimah.cjb.net</A>

    take care,

    hussein

    La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.

  2. #2
    JerryLove Guest
    Islamic? Well, I guess anything a muslem does is Islamic. But it is not, as implied, Arabic. He directly cites to teaching Kung Fu. The rest is a mix of indo and fillipino stuff.

    From what he shows anyway. (Or should I be saying "you" instead of "him"?)

    Mind you, I'm not picking on the material itself, but I don't see why it's called Islamic.

  3. #3
    mubarazaad Guest

    About islamic martial arts

    Hi jerry,

    that's a question I get alot from people who are unfamiliar with the religious cultures of the people in the middle east, african and southeast asian countries.
    Firstly the southern phillipino martial arts of kali silat are from the Moro people who are very religious and pious muslims who through there experiences have created very effective fighting methods that are very famous nowadays. Secondly Silat which is also very popular in america now is from Indonesia and Malaysia which are both Islamic Republics. The Chinese Wushu you mentioned comes from the "Hui" people in the northern parts of china who are muslim and constitute the largest minority in China, they have developed many very famous style like cha chuan, baji, tan tui, pigua, qishi, and many others. I hope this give you some more info about the method and cultures of these areas.

    hussein

    La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
    There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

  4. #4
    JerryLove Guest
    Fair enough. But the silats have been in Indonesia far longer than the Muslems have (in all likelyhood longer than the religion of Islam has been in existence). And the spritual aspects of the Pentjaks are decidedly non-Islamic (anyone want an antig antig, or to call spirits to go into a trance?). Many of the Kuntao and Pukilan practitioners are Buddist or Christian from either Chineese or Dutch ancestory/religion. In fact, the only Muslems I have met in Silat (in my very limited experience) were the head of the Seni Gayong style and one of his students (Chiku Madgid and Soloman)

    The point is, though many Muslems practice Silat and Kali, they were not invented by muslems, they are not muslem in their traits (any more than Boxing is Christian because Christians invented it), and the are not "Islamic arts".

    IMHO of course

  5. #5
    8stepsifu Guest

    nice web site

    It has way more techniques than most pay sites. I noticed that you were warping your hands Master Pan style. Ever hear of dit ta jow? You can have rock solid nuckles and palms, without the arthritis. To each his own, but why deform yourself when you don't have to? Thats karate stuff. I don't doubt that Master Pan has his reasons and I have nothing, but respect for him, although I do think he must be a little mentally off to do some of his more Spartan feats like 1,000 spear thrusts working his hands literally to the bone.

    anyway I love this technique description......

    "Here Im accosted by a bigger tougher thug, he is off course unaware that Im going to rip his eyes out"

    If your not bleeding, your not having enough fun.

  6. #6
    mubarazaad Guest

    Islamic or Not?

    Hello again jerry,

    This discussion is becoming very interesting now. Ok first I must say that I do agree with you to some degree but remember that you are looking at this from a western christian mentality. In the Islamic mentality the concept of country is secondary to the concept of the muslim "ummah" which is the community as a whole wherever they may live throughout the world. The reason why I refer to the term "Islamic Martial Arts" is because for muslims, when a martial art or anything is created it is given first to the ummah, and it belongs to all muslims regardless of where they may reside, and that is the one and only reason why it is and always will be an Islamic Martial Art, because the people who practice it give priority to their religious belief before that of country or tribal affilliation. Everything is given to the ummah first.
    If you understand islam then you will easily be able to grasp that concept.

    Hussein

    La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
    There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

  7. #7
    JerryLove Guest

    Hello

    My point is over this line.

    "when a martial art or anything is created it is given first to the ummah, and it belongs to all muslims regardless of where they may reside"

    The Silats in general, were not created by Islamic people. Even if the particular style you practice was created by a Muslem, it still owes Hormat to the Silats it comes from.

    If a Christian, or a Buddist, or whatever changes the rules forboxing, that does not make boxing a Christian or Buddist martial art.

    I am curious about the "dedicates everything they create" part. Does that mean if the founder of the XFL (American Football league) is Muslem, XFL football is Islamic football? Also, if what we do belongs to all Islamic people, is it right to charge to teach it?

    Interesting topic.

  8. #8
    mubarazaad Guest

    Silat is it Islamic?

    I agree Silat was created and used by the indigenous people of Indonesia and Malaysia before the arrival of Islam, but these same people who founded the systems took Islam and the ideologies it is founded on as their own, integrating them into their culture and therefore accepting to live according to the teachings of koran. The first warriors who went on jihad to propogate the teachings of the prophet were also very experienced and skilled fighters with many battles behind them, with them came techniques, methods, and strategies which were shared with the people of the areas they went to, creating a mix which slowly developed into the Silat systems that are practiced largely by muslim people today in Indonesia and Malaysia.
    This does not mean that face or respect is not given to the people who created the systems, it means that the major exponents of the systems who are descendants of the founders have chosen to put Islam before all and amongst themselves even refer to their specific styles as "Islamic fighting styles" rather than indigenous styles, also because the majority of the people practicing these Silat styles are muslim people.
    When reading articles or speaking with muslim martial artists from Malaysia or Indonesia it is normal to hear Islam and Silat in the same sentence, martial science is tradition in Islamic culture, the flag of Islam carries the sword as a logo, so the people don't see a separation between Islamic culture & Silat, all they see is a paragraph in the koran that clearly states combat training as an obligation to muslim men, therefore fusing the two things together in their mind.
    As for the styles being for the ummah, yes they are but also the needs of the instructor must be kept in mind also. I have never been in favor of the commercialization of martial science so I believe that those who deserve to learn and can pay should pay and those who deserve to learn but can't pay should also be given the opportunity. In these cases the quality of the individual is more important than money.

    Hussein

    La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
    There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

  9. #9
    old jong Guest
    IS KILLING A RELIGIOUS ACT?

    C'est la vie!

  10. #10
    mubarazaad Guest

    is killing religious?

    If you are referring to Islam, then in my opinion the answer is yes, as long as it is in defense of the religion or the muslim people, jihad(struggle) and war against oppressors is a pillar of Islam.

    La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
    There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

  11. #11
    JerryLove Guest
    This was such a nice talk that I'm not even gonna go there.

  12. #12
    mubarazaad Guest

    I agree jerry

    I agree jerry, anyway thanks alot for a great discussion.

    hussein

    La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
    There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

  13. #13
    mubarazaad Guest

    re: silat

    jerry,

    I see from your profile that you study with Guro Clear in florida. In your style of Silat do you employ reverse grip knife trapping? if yes what are your experiences regarding the effectiveness of this method.

    La sayf ila zulfaker wa la fata ila Ali.
    There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

  14. #14
    JerryLove Guest
    Although my preference is for the standard, forward grip, we are of the "you get the grip you get" belief and so practice both. Wile I've no combat experience using a reverse grip for trapping (I presume you mean sung the knife as a trapping tool, not trapping the knife in someone else's reverse grip, correct me if I am wrong there), I'll tell you what I've seen training.

    My personal preference when I am armed is to keep the knife in play, so I avoid tying it down against an unarmed opponent. While I am a big fan of trapping against a knife, I am not as big a fan of trapping with one. But the situation can arise.

    I don't use any one-handed trapping with the knife (I'm not sure weather there is any or not) I will use the knife in the same situations I would use an open hand as part of a joint hyperextension. I also find that using the knife to "pull out" and arm leaves you in an excelent position to filet up the arm to the neck or ribcage.

    But as I said, most of my attacks, reverse-grip, are punch, slice through, withdraw. What are your experiences with it?

  15. #15
    Kyoshu Guest
    "The point is, though many Muslems practice Silat and Kali, they were not invented by muslems, they are not muslem in their traits (any more than Boxing is Christian because Christians invented it), and the are not "Islamic arts"."

    Yeah, In Philippines, they told use that Arnis was used in history before any outside religions where introduced. IE: Arnis and Sundang were already used long before the people of Lapo Lapo fought the Spanish who tried to Christianise us.

    Kyoshu

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