Islamic Knife Fighting

[Taomonkey]

Wa Salaam Alekum
Peace and Greetings Hussein,
There is a very good reason that we FMArtist practice disarms, if you continue at them they become easier, through the movement teh weapon is disarmed or dropped. My goal in knife is to not get cut, to control the blade and disamr if possible, and it is often possible. (sometimes I disarm your blade into you).
I guarantee you that a Presas could disarm any weapon you are holding, not because of supreior technique, but because they have the skill to do it through years of practice and challenge matches. I caution your calling FMA a fad, there are many sects of Islam that others would call a fad, and not true Islam. Ther reality of combat is often misssed in words on a page, or even in a seminar (I assume that was your exposure to Remey Presas). As MAster PAn would tell you it is through time that understanding is acquired, and my friend time will teach you.
Now to the subject of Islamic Martial Arts, true there are moro arts but teh same arts are practiced by non muslims. But we classify arts by teh culture that spawned them, not their country of origin. So is the use of Islamic Arts wrong, no more that refering to Gung Fu as Chinese. While the arts may have existed for time before Islam, they have incorporated many aspects of the culture into their movement, creating a style. And that's what we all have, various styles of Martial Arts, bassed on the needs and cultures of the people who passed them on to younger generations.
Peace to us all!
GK

[mubarazaad]

Salam Taomonkey,

I agree with you we can refer to them as Moro martial arts or Islamic Martial Arts, both are correct.

take care guys,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

[Kyoshu]

"I agree with you, but now Bangsamoro(Moroland southern phillipines) is Islamic and they don't care about anything else. They say their kali silat is muslim martial arts, if you don't believe me ask them."

That's how it is in Philippines, people can get away with anything. Look at the Abusayef (sp).

Kyoshu

[old jong]

I hope that you don't mind my questionning.I don't want to attack you in any way and your answers make me believe that you're a good guy after all! (even if you look like a klingon warrior ready to defend his honnor!) :D :D :D
There is still something bugging me.Are you not worried that one of your students might defend himself with a knife?we never know,when the habits and the techniques are there.The laws are clear about that and it's a problem when a juge find that there was eccessive force applied in the defense.Do you have young students?(your style may be more practical and tempting to carry in the street than say kendo or wing chun knifes)
My last question:Is your school open to everybody?
Salaam! or in quebecois salut ;)

C'est la vie!

[mubarazaad]

Hi old jong,

I am happy you see that I am not a thug, I just want martial arts people to be what they train to be, fighters.
Anyway regarding training, I train with anybody, you do wing chun so I guess we can learn alot from each other.
As for the laws, I always obey the laws of the place I live or visit.

Salut mon ami,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

[old jong]

Thank you! Au plaisir de se rencontrer! :)

C'est la vie!

[Knifefighter]

I am. Why do you ask?

Disarms- I would have to say the probability of getting a disarm is inversely proportional to your opponent's skill with the knife.ˇ

"I guarantee you that a Presas could disarm any weapon you are holding, not because of supreior technique, but because they have the skill to do it through years of practice and challenge matches."
A rather strong statement, don't you think? I would pretty much guarantee the opposite if the knife wielder is decent..

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 01-03-01 at 07:00 PM.]

[Black Jack]

Hussein I did think your webpage was excellent and it is nice to see a instructor who realy takes the self defense aspect of his art very seriously.

I almost always carry a tactical folder/spyderco civilan on me for self protection and if I ever had to bring it out than I know that I have failed all my other options.

Jo the use of a blade is a last resort and should be saved for those times that you have to apply that kind of damage. Multiple attackers, weapons, muggers, rapists, burglars and other strict situations.

If you have the chance to bring a blade in combat it is also not a fixed win either. A person can receive multiple deep tissue cuts and still continue to attack and they may not even feel the cuts under an extreme AD dump.

Having a serrated edge on your blade or wavy blade pattern will help the attacker feel the steel as I have been told.

As for the knife vrs knife disarm issue I can only voice what I train to do. In this type of training situation I like to keep my distance and slash whatever is foolish enough to get close to my zone...aka defanging the snake...this is a simple tool that requires no complex grappling skills and it allows you to respond with a counter slash or thrust at a fast rate.

Regards

[mubarazaad]

Hi knifefighter,

I saw Top Dogs instructionals on power and the snakey stick, You guys are really good. Now for my question, in your experiences have you ever fought knife VS knife and the fight ended up in ground range with one of you coming out of the engagement without wounds that would surely kill you?
Everytime I spar blade VS blade and it ends up on the ground some how, which is a rare occurence anyway, myself and my opponent almost always sustain non survivable wounds.
Do you guys get similar results in ground range?

thanks,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

[mubarazaad]

Blackjack,

Thanks alot for the comments, one kind word makes it all worthwhile.

take care brother,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

[Knifefighter]

I’ve done quite a bit of knife vs. knife, both at the gatherings and in training. You are right about the wounds sustained when you get inside and/or on the ground and both guys are skilled with the blade. You both end up taking some very serious damage.
I have occasionally come out with what I believe would be survivable wounds. When this has happened, one of three things has occurred. 1- I have used my knife faster and to more lethal targets to "kill" my opponent before he would have been able to kill me; 2- I have controlled the opponent’s weapon hand with my free hand and used my weapon against him before he could free his hand; 3-I have gotten rid of my knife, controlled the opponent’s knife, peeled the weapon away, and used his knife against him.
?

[Knifefighter]

One thing about fighting with knives on the ground- you’ve got to understand the principles of the ground game to make it work with knives..

[Reima Kostaja]

Hi,

Mighty fine site you have Hussein! Really interesting and informative stuff. Keep it up.

[thekuntawman]

al hamdu allah, i love your website

in addition to what everybody saus about "islamic martial arts", when we say islamic martial arts we practice our religion in every way we can. so as a muslim there is somethings we can and cannot do, like bow unless we are in prayer. also a muslim is forbidden to cripple an opponent or cause him unnecessary pain. so for example if the opponent prove himself to be your enemy and we must fight we have to be to the point and spare him unecessary pain and crippling. so because of this technique that is popular in the philippine martial art, like the "gunting" can be considered haram if the purpose is to maim the opponent when there was a safer way to deal with him, or kill him quickly if it is necessary. this is martial art practice with islam.

now to the person who says that he is offended by the muslim use of "islamic martial art", this is no different than how people who learn the philippine style now they claim they are doing WMA "western ma". there is a feeling of pride in things from our own culture so people look for these things to study. the same way many chinese people might prefer to study chinese art, and so on. our pride should not offend you, unless you just dont like our culture or you feel threaten by our pride.

oh and you are wrong jerry, maybe most silat seminar in this country is done by christian dutch people, or western educated indonesian people who converted to other religion, but in indonesia and malaysia and the philippines most silat men ARE muslim.

[JerryLove]

You should have just started a new thread.

"in addition to what everybody saus about "islamic martial arts", when we say islamic martial arts we practice our religion in every way we can."

Then you should realize the extreme huberus you exercise to use "Islamic" (designating something of Allah) rather than "Muslem" (designating something of muslems).

"so as a muslim there is somethings we can and cannot do, like bow unless we are in prayer"

To be specific, you are not allowed to show subjugation to anything except Allah, and bowing is considered a sign og subjegation. Therefore you can bow whenever you wish, but only to Allah.

"like the "gunting" can be considered haram if the purpose is to maim the opponent when there was a safer way to deal with him, or kill him quickly if it is necessary. this is martial art practice with islam."

Considering the prevelance of guntang (sccissoring) in Silat, that would kind-of make my point for me.

"now to the person who says that he is offended by the muslim use of "islamic martial art", this is no different than how people who learn the philippine style now they claim they are doing WMA "western ma"."

And I would argue the same thing to them.

"there is a feeling of pride in things from our own culture so people look for these things to study. the same way many chinese people might prefer to study chinese art, and so on."

That's the indo culture, not the muslem culture.

"our pride should not offend you, unless you just dont like our culture"

Now that you mention it. Something about the widespread killing of women and children and ethnec Chinese. Something about the hunting of tribal enemies to make dinner out of them. You know, if this is an example of Islam in action, I don't think I would be out there suppoorting it if I were you.

"or you feel threaten by our pride."

Self-rightous people always make me nevrous. That's why I'm armed.

"oh and you are wrong jerry,"

I'll requote myself.....

"Many of the Kuntao and Pukilan practitioners are Buddist or Christian from either Chineese or Dutch ancestory/religion. In fact, the only Muslems I have met in Silat"

Are you saying that there are not many Buddist and Christian practitioners? Or that I have met more muslem practitioners than I said?

"maybe most silat seminar in this country is done by christian dutch people, or western educated indonesian people who converted to other religion, but in indonesia and malaysia and the philippines most silat men ARE muslim."

Non-sequiter and unproven. What is the percentage? From what study? How many per Pentjak or Kuntao practitioners compared to Poukilan?