Shuai Chiao is Chinese

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon


Huang ti (Yellow Emperor 27th century B.C, http://www.mystae.com/streams/ufos/emperor.html )

It is said during the reing of Hung Ti, organised combat in the form of "Horn" locking was practiced. This is the forebearer of Chinese Wrestling or Shui Chaio.

That all being said, Shui Chiao is arguably the OLDEST martial art in existence, short of maybe Greaco Roman wrestling.

As far as the caveman thing earlier is this post, I wouldn't qualify that as martial arts. As far as SC being the oldest, there is plenty of evidence of ma in africa well before 27 BC

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Personnally, I think the Pankration thing is a bit of a stretch on thier part.

why would that seem like such a stretch?

[TigerJaw]

Welles was in fact a fabian. Upper-class fore-runner to the labor movement. AKA Socialism or Solidarity. Not quite a Commy but leaning that way on.

The Morloks were the English working class. The Eloi were the Upper class. At the time there as not a significant middle class. Can't really compare to modern America with it's ever expanding middle class and working poor.

[Chang Style Novice]

Actually, the real middle class in America has been shrinking steadily since the 80s.

[omarthefish]

The stretch isn't that pankraton existed way back then. The stretch is that there is any kind of continuity that can be traced from then until now.

Re: How close is todays shuai jiao to the 2000 years ago version...

Probably about the same as todays wrestling with ancient wrestling. 'Shuai Jiao' is actually just the Chinese name for wrestling. I am aware that 'shuai jiao' is mainly about throws and 'wrestling' is mainly about ground work but there IS no other word for wrestling in Chinese. 'Shuai jiao' literally translated means "throwing and falling". I bought a book once in China about western style wrestling. Do you know what they called it? "Ancient Wrestling Fundamentals". (Gudian Shuaijiao) There's Mongolian Shuai Jiao and Hebei? (I forget the main styles in China) Modern wrestlers talk about Russian wrestling vs. Turkish vs. American. They're all about the same. Just different styles. (in the non-MA dictionary regular folks common usage sense of the word)

Olympic style wrestling is called Gudian (ancient) Shuaijiao. Japanese styles have their own names because the Japanese characters can be read in Chinese. eg. Judo. In Chinese, it's Roudao. Jujitsu? Roushu.

[WanderingMonk]

sorry, omar,

Shuai jiao literally means "throwing horn".

"throwing and falling", how does jiao tranlate into falling?

wm

[Water Dragon]

Omar, whenever you hear the term Shuai Chiao in the U.S., it's usually Bao Ding Kuai Chiao or Chan Chiao that's being referred to.

[GGL]

When a art says.. it incorportes Shuai Chiao.. It may mean.. I know a couple of throws.. so I can say I teach that.. but far from that.. If you know a couple of throws and locks.. does that really mean you know Shuai Chiao.. I will give you a for instance...

My belting test.. I had to do:
1)demostrate with knowledge 80 throws.
2) survive 30 rounds of wrestling with changing out with fresh people
3) do 15 3 min. rounds of full contact with kick punch lock throw...
4) demonstrate 30 kick punch lock throw combinations
5) demonstrate 30 kick punch lock combinations with only control of the opponent
6) make up your own Shuai Chiao form with only Shuai Chiao techiques.. (diag strike, march kick, throws, and so...)
7) past present and future of Shuai Chiao (essay)
8) my person growth of Shuai Chiao (essay)
9) what you can bring to Shuai Chiao (essay)..

So if you term Shuai Chaio as only wrestling.. then your only getting a fraction of the picture.. Yes it does encompass a lot of throws.. but is that before or after you recieve the strikes and kicks with locks??

Maybe that should be the motto:

Throw them on their head.. then kick some sense into them..

But then again I am kinda biased

[Water Dragon]

Great Post! Any chance you could share a couple of those combos?

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
sorry, omar,

Shuai jiao literally means "throwing horn".

"throwing and falling", how does jiao tranlate into falling?

wm

Sorry WanderingMonk,

Shai jiao literally means "throwing foot", at least according to the 2000 printing of the Xinhua dictionary published in Beijing and used as the standard by most students from middle school through college.

I know your thinking of the story that Shuaijiao evolved out of some sort of ritualized combat where the combatants dress up with animal horns. However, the character for horn (3rd tone) and the one used for shuaijiao (1st tone) are different. The origin story may be true but the word "shuaijiao" does not reflect this.

Water Dragon,
Thanks for the clarification.

GGL,
Sorry to step on your toes. I understand the difference between 'shuai jiao' the term in Chinese and 'shuai jiao' as a style of combat. I would answer your post by saying that when you say only wrestling, perhaps you are getting a limited picture too. I've seen it in context. I would argue just that in some parts of the world they expect you to throw some strikes to set up your throws when you are wrestling. Perhaps you could tell me what term I could use to refer to wrestling in Chinese? I'm not aware of another term. It seems to me that the best solution is to either (from a Chinese perspective) to refer to wrestling as "Western Shuai Jiao" or (from a western perspective) to refer to Shuai Jiao as "Chinese Wrestling".

Don't take it as a slant against your art. It's just a linguistic problem and untill someone suggests a better translation, I'm sticking with mine.

[Brad]

sorry, omar,

Shuai jiao literally means "throwing horn".

"throwing and falling", how does jiao tranlate into falling?

My classmate had an interesting conversation with one of the OSU Shui Jiao people after class today. Turns out there's two different ways of writing Shui Jiao. The old way has the charecter for horn in it, and the new way has a charecter that has to do with falling or something like that(I don't think it translated directly to well).

[omarthefish]

woah. simultaneous posts.

In reference to yours, I should add that 'contains the symbol for horn' is signifigantly different from 'is the symbol for horn'. It's an interesting piece of etymology though.

[Brad]

[neigung]

Don't forget that Shuai Jiao/Chiao very probably came from Mongolian Boke.

[No_Know]

"Shuai Chiao is a Chinese martial art. Yes, I know it can be hard to believe. We don’t develop Chi, we’re not deadly to be in the ring, and we generally agree more with NHB and San Shou crowd than Kung Fu crowd, but we are a Chinese martial art. In fact, Shuai Chiao is a TRADITIONAL Chinese martial art.

Shuai Chiao may even be the oldest of the Chinese martial arts."

And before that was Shuai li. And before that Shuai Ti.~ Shuai Chiao was done wearing a helmet with a horn on it or some such. One would gorge the other with the horn still on the head.

This Ring type Sport was popular and also evolved. Its porgenator(s) and progeny were training resources for military/ royal bodyguard types.

"In conclusion, Shuai Chiao is a Chinese Martial art, a form of Kung Fu and not an Other Related Art."

Shuai Chiao is a Martial sport of China. Mongolia is reknown for wrestlers. it is my whatever that Northern Chinese Might have picked-up this cultural habit as a regional thing and it was thought of as nifty. and became popular. It might actually be Mongolian. And if it is Chinese it is art only in as much as a good Boxing (Gentlemanly~ Art) combination at the right moment is a thing of Beauty to behold. As Shuai Chiao is perfoofmed in a limited space--ring-of sorts. Therefore a Sport. Kun-Fu is Not a Sport. Therefore Shuai Chiao is Not Kung-Fu. With that fits validly and soundly the category of Other Related...As the website is KUNG-FU/QIGONG...[looking], [looking], [looking...]. Nope, (in the title) no sight of Shuai Chiao nor CHINese SPORT.

Whatever it was called at various stages throws were used. It was used in battle but was also entertainment. I have to think that a battle tactic that was also a Sport was using the sport to help train the battle tactic. And that soldiers would tweak it some or practice particular aspect or something. But It is it's own thing Not a kung-fu, yet Kung-Fu?

It's a sport. Putting into Others related... seems not off.


omarthefish

Suggestion: as English does not have a single name for wrestling(in America has seizing and controling and throws) with punching(extensive) and kicking (extensive) perhaps it could be merely called Shuai Chiao.

Shuai Chiao stops, when other than the feet touch the ground (if that's true) then it's standing something or other.

Writing these last few bits I thought it as Wrestle-Street...Standing Wrestle-Street-fighting.
Hand on the ground.