Wing Chun - The smart person's art?

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A fortune cookie told me that the best doctor is not known outside of the family. If diseases do not appear, who can win notoriety by curing them? If time and space do not exist, who can lecture on them?

Some practitioners create problems, some appear to solve them. And others appear to have no problems; are they intelligent, wise, talented, or just lucky?

[Rolling_Hand]

<<Some practitioners create problems, some appear to solve them. And others appear to have no problems; are they intelligent, wise, talented, or just lucky?>>Censored

What problems?...We are confronted by a condition, not a problem, and not a theory. Our friend is a flower. If we take care of her well, she will grow beautifully. To help a flower grow well, we must understand her nature. To help our partner do Chi Sao well, we must feel her energy!--RH

[Phenix]

A great song. ..


wind-flowers
my father told me not to go near them.
he said he feared them always
and told me that they carried him away....

Wind-flowers, i couldn't wait
To touch them. to smell them. i held them closely.
Now, i cannot break away.
thier sweet bouquet disappears.
Like the vapor in the desert.
Take a warning son.

Wind-flowers
Their beauty capture every young dreamer who lingers near them.....

[canglong]

The answer still remains yes and yes.

"Do you need to be smart?" is different question than Savi's interpretation of Hung Fa Yi's answer to the question of "What is smart?" My random musing poked a hole in Savi's interpretation, and Kathy Jo elaborated quite eloquently.

Your random musing just illustrates that you misinterpreted not only Savi's answers but Hung Fa Yi's answer to Mun Hung questions as well.

Savi's simple answers were yes and yes and then he goes on to point out that HFYWCK has addressed these questions by simply providing a method for teaching the "intellectually challenged" to become skilled fighters in a proven manner of drilling known as Hung Fa Yi Siu Lin Tau as well as providing an intellectually stimulating martial science to the more advanced students by use of a method known as Hung Fa Yi Siu Nihm Tau as well as other methods we could discuss later.

[canglong]

What problems?...We are confronted by a condition, not a problem, and not a theory.

Excellent statement Rolling_Hand. For the most part I just wanted to make sure this statement was posted at least twice, secondly I would like to suggest Fresh read it and better understand what is and is not WCK.

[Rolling_Hand]

Ten Tigers and Tony say..."Kungfu", Hendrik says ..."wind-flowers".

That reminds me one of Karen Carpenters' songs -"Yesterday Once More"

[Phenix]

.....They did not listen they're not listening still
Perhaps they never will..." - Vincent "Starry Starry Night"

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by canglong The answer still remains yes and yes.



Your random musing just illustrates that you misinterpreted not only Savi's answers but Hung Fa Yi's answer to Mun Hung questions as well.

Savi's simple answers were yes and yes and then he goes on to point out that HFYWCK has addressed these questions by simply providing a method for teaching the "intellectually challenged" to become skilled fighters in a proven manner of drilling known as Hung Fa Yi Siu Lin Tau as well as providing an intellectually stimulating martial science to the more advanced students by use of a method known as Hung Fa Yi Siu Nihm Tau as well as other methods we could discuss later. [/B]

Again, a different question. A comparison was made to the "intellectually challenged" with the equivalent of "high school diploma." Still, I'll also attempt to answer Mun Hung's original question.

While not being stupid sure helps, you don't have to be smart to reach the highest levels of Ving Tsun. I've seen first hand the effects of intellect on the speed of learning. But, I cannot agree with spfstr, either; that does not have a direct correlation to the ultimate level of achievement. And, no basis exists to compare the ultmate level with the scholarly endeavors of a classical education.

There is nothing wrong with a teacher or a student recognizing their own limitations - no shame in that, and life sometimes moves at a pace many are not able to sustain or slow down for. But, I have also seen that, more often than not, when a teacher comes to the conclusion another person is unable to learn, most often that really is a unbecoming rationalization to avoid facing that the teacher is lacking the ability or inclination to teach that particular person - in that prejudice, there is shame.

Nothing stops a handful of scholars in every field of study from scoffing at the notion they are not better than everyone else, though. Consider that, in today's U.S. military, it is daunting task for KPM's to advance his direct commission beyond O-4 without a college degree plus a wife. It is very difficult task to measure the merits of KPM's military leadership abilities. Studies from the Rand Corp, however, show this way is not justified - but it remains and is made more stringent, nonetheless.



Ving Tsun is a martial art for the common man or woman. Within its teachings are all the tools necessary to pass it on to the next generation. The common man or woman does not always have the opportunity or inclination to obtain "the equivalent of a master's degree," which, by Savi's analogy, is required to obtain the "technical know-how which addresses why things are being done in order to balance out the mind and body understanding." The only reasonable conclusion to such an analogy is that it is Savi's belief that the common man or woman can be trained, but never reach a level in Ving Tsun necessary to properly pass its wisdom on to the next generation.

Do you really mean that the "equivalent of a master's degree" is inherent with the qualifications for the teaching method of what you are trying to learn? Is it a requirement of the method that, without it, one cannot learn the and, thus, would be unqualified to pass on the wisdom?

You are convinced I misunderstood Savi. Okay, but the above is the logical conclusion to Savi's analogy. I feel that Savi did not mean to say that, though by yours and spfstr's seemingly defensive responses, I'm not so sure anymore. Are you saying that's what he actually meant? He meant to say that the teaching of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is soley the dominion of the scholarly elite of its students and that you concur that is a correct intepretation of the Hung Fa Yi method???

Has something happened to Savi that he is no longer able to speak for himself?

[canglong]

Tom,
because I practice Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun I believe I understand what Savi was saying in his statements where as someone not studying HFY might not have so I thought I might try to make the connection between the two statements because your point here is what Savi was not only addressing but seemingly in agreement with in my opinion...

Ving Tsun is a martial art for the common man or woman. Within its teachings are all the tools necessary to pass it on to the next generation. The common man or woman does not always have the opportunity or inclination to obtain "the equivalent of a master's degree,"

With that in mind the practice of HFY SLT and HFY SNT and other methods for what you refer to as the common man can now also provide anyone with the opportunity to learn what might be considered the equivilant of a master's degree but the point is this, yes there is a way for the common man to learn wing chun kung fu and become very skilled and HFY has addressed this issue. Even more to the point HFY has addressed the issue in such a way to make it systematic for both the teacher and the student so odds are they can both be as successful each time the information is passed on.

Although I do realize I am not Savi, if you only want answers from Savi may I suggest sending him a private message I am sure he will be more than happy to answer you that way as well. As you suggest sometimes his life may be moving too fast or slow to keep up with every post of every thread but I do know him and know his answers are sincere and meant to be helpful.

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What problems?...We are confronted by a condition, not a problem, and not a theory.

Conditions are not apprehended by the intellect. If there are no problems then there is no call for intelligence.

Does your line of WC give written tests, BTW? Do you think they would be appropriate or useful?

[canglong]

p.s. ...Tom Happy Birthday!

for the birthday guy

[Tom Kagan]

Thank you for the birthday wishes and the link. Leo the lion was delicious, if a bit charred. The wooden dragon in me does overcook a lot of things.

With that in mind the practice of HFY SLT and HFY SNT and other methods for what you refer to as the common man can now also provide anyone with the opportunity to learn what might be considered the equivilant of a master's degree but the point is this, yes there is a way for the common man to learn wing chun kung fu and become very skilled and HFY has addressed this issue.

If what you are comparing as "the equivalent of a masters degree" as what is necessary to teach Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu, then common ground has not been reached.

The common man or woman may not have the opportunity or inclination to obtain "the equivalent of a masters degree." It does not matter how much the common man or woman can refine their skills within a particular methodology. If they are left with technique which cannot be passed on, what they were taught is incomplete. To compare your methodology to a post graduate classical degree does it an injustice.

Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu is certainly not rocket science:

- sit on your horse
- occupy center
- disperse, deflect, dominate
- hit, kick, thrust, slice
- practice, practice, practice
- enjoy, grow, live
- cooperate, share, pass it on

That's about it. You don't even need "the equivalent of a high school diploma" to live in a "beautiful springtime."


"What do you call 10,000 books written about Ving Tsun? Tai Chi. Maybe I'm too cheap to buy 10,000 books. Maybe I'm too stupid to read 10,000 books. Maybe I'm too lazy to write 10,000 books. But, Tai Chi is a great art - what the f@ck are you doing with Ving Tsun if what you want is Tai Chi?" -- Moy Yat (an Earth Tiger in one of his more cantankerous moods)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Tom Kagan

You don't even need "the equivalent of a high school diploma" to live in a "beautiful springtime."

A baby need high school diploma to learn how to breath.
And it has to be a certain high school diploma only.
Is this natura? or dreaming?

Beside, technical training is not equal to education. Smart doesnt mean Wisdom.

For people who knows all about Chan this and Chan that. Hui Neng the six patriach doesnt even knows how to read and write....

To much Windflower makes dream babies.

[canglong]

If what you are comparing as "the equivalent of a masters degree" as what is necessary to teach Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu, then common ground has not been reached.

No, I did not indicate it was necessary only possible for the "intellectually challenged" student to acquire the equivalent knowledge.

If they are left with technique which cannot be passed on, what they were taught is incomplete.

to quote myself-- "Even more to the point HFY has addressed the issue in such a way to make it systematic for both the teacher and the student so odds are they can both be as successful each time the information is passed on." yes the system is complete.

Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu is certainly not rocket science

Never said it was, only that after noticing all the different variances in which it is taught and passed on you would think that this were so.

For people who knows all about Chan this and Chan that. Hui Neng the six patriach doesnt even knows how to read and write....

then he probably has no use for all your sutras either.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong




then he probably has no use for all your sutras either.

Wrong answer, He studied sutras after enlightenment.