Wing Chun - The smart person's art?

[Savi]

Tom, did my last post hurt your feelings or something? Who said anything about understanding your sihing in OH?!? After reading your last post some people might say your skirt is showing...

Why discuss my lineage and assume things? All your last post consisted of is opinion. But now I really have a much clearer idea of your nature. You most certainly have many underlying resentments towards particular people, yet you do not truly know or understand them. Plain and simple. No need to discuss people's lineage and try and use it against them. Bad tactic buddy.

I am not posting here to convince you about anything. You don't even know me, yet you presume to know what I am doing all the way here in AZ! Man, be soft! Teaching and Proper Consistency go hand in hand.

WRT Hung Fa Yi (notice how I didn't even use the name in my last post...shrug), you will never be able to understand WHAT IT IS until you stop having such strong preferences. Grain of salt, man.

Perhaps you feel threatened by what I am saying. Don't know, don't care. You want to make this a personal issue, not my problem. Stop living in the past.

[Tom Kagan]

I've made no assumptions about you or your lineage. I've read and responded to your words, as you have to mine. How am I 'living in the past' if what I pointed out regarding 'only time will tell' is about the future? What have I judged when it is just an observation? To suggest that I feel threatened is amusing.

WRT Hung Fa Yi (notice how I didn't even use the name in my last post...shrug),

from your previous post:

Tom does not know what teaching methods exist in HFY. Nor does he understand or recognize the nature of the various ‘paths’ of learning in HFY, yet feels competent enough to judge it.

And 'HFY' means?

[Savi]

OK, HFY word overlooked in the first paragraph.... BUT Tom,

Understanding that is far more important for the purposes of what you write than what you are taking on faith as some perfect form of combat unchanged from 250 years ago. And, its far more important than the unfortunate human predilection to create an army over which to preside for some misguided notion of proving who is right or wrong. -Tom

Assumption about the validity of the system as well as my personal views on the matter...

In your method, only Mr. Garrett Gee trying to teach publicly in the past eleven years or so. His background comes from other martial arts. Mr. Benny Meng has been learning it only the past six years. His background is also in other martial arts. My SiHing, in turn, is now trying to teach your Sifu. His background also comes from other martial arts. What's your background? -Tom

Not only an assumption on the character of my family, but also implying that we subject our own beliefs/perceptions into the teaching of others? Come on Tom, this is a poor reflection of diplomacy. And my background is none of your business because it has nothing to do with the discussion.

Whether the Hung Fa Yi method will remain constant - not based on "one person’s expression of their own experience" - can only be proved with a far greater amount of branching of the lineage's tree than seen up until now. As it stands now, I already see quite a few of what you call 'personal expression' differences between San Fransisco and Ohio and Ohio and Arizona. Perhaps they are not of consequence. But, from my understanding of human nature, I doubt it. -Tom

Wholey incorrect as now you seem to have assumed the role of measuring the quality of HFY? Are you the inheritor Tom? Do you know the science of HFY? We will all have our own 'expression' of what we learn, but the science has been discovered. The science is something that cannot be changed because it is based on all common denominators of reality. Not my reality or yours, reality itself.

Only time will tell whether you are correct. You haven't completed the system and tried to teach others on your own. At this point, all that is evident is your faith and trust in your Sifu's ability to guide you through the Hung Fa Yi method of learning Ving Tsun and your belief that you will, eventually, "have the true system." To me thus far, this appears to parallel not only most other lineages of Ving Tsun, but other types of martial arts as well. -Tom

The above italicized is a COMPLETE assumption. You are making assumptions about me and my perception of what is real. You want to retract this statement now?

I've made no assumptions about you or your lineage. -Tom

And also about this?

How am I 'living in the past' if what I pointed out regarding 'only time will tell' is about the future? -Tom

You're not following the dialogue Tom. Your above comment is mismatching my "living in the past" with your "only time will tell". I was referring to your beef with my Sigung, and I would apprecicate it if you would leave him out of your discussion with me. He has nothing to do with our discussion.

Understanding Hung Fai Yi is an entirely different subject than understanding my SiHing in Ohio. Your Sifu is not the only one who's played with the toys in your SiGung's basement. -Tom

This is where you went off on the personal. I made no mention whatsoever about Master Meng. Bringing up your experience about 'toys in your Sigung's basement' is stating what to me, Tom? HFY is a toy? Or are you stating this because you think I can't see beyond my Sifu? Tom, you want to get back on topic?

[Marky]

I see the slow and painful formulation of the answer to Mun Hung's original question.

[Phenix]

Do you feel that the skill level of a Wing Chun practitioner is greatly influenced by his or her intelligence? ----

N-O NO



Or can an intellectually challenged person still learn and apply as well? -----

Get your PHD in ADVANCE DIFFERENTIAL GEOMETRY and then tell us.


Side topic:

The old chinese saying " diligent can substitute dull".
Thus, proper intelligence might give one some lead however it is the diligent of training and "learning how to ask" and "willing to change for better" makes the different. That is the key to mastery of an art. IMHO

There is no short cut. No fomular can susbtitute experience.

No sole intelligence can replace the conditioning of the body to syncronize with mind and breathing and fighting experience.
all needs time and training and alots of analysze and reasoning and trying... IMHO.

[ZIM]

Originally posted by spfstr:
Okay I will concede that you can have skill without great intelligence. However, just because I can get the dog to salivate when the bell rings does not mean he knows why he is salivating.

Its maybe a truism in any art that over-intellectualism can get in the way. I think it a mark of honesty, if not real intelligence, when a person can say "I don't know" with perfect confidence. So if a sifu can give me the answer to everything right away, my merde detector goes off- he's a dummy.

What I mean by that is, only really dumb ppl have the answers to everything and will tell you about it. *I* OTOH, have only dumb moments.

And, YES, my dumb moments lead me directly to enlightenment becoz I'm dumber than you so whatever. Om Mane Padme Dumb

[ZIM]

Something else was on my mind, so here goes.

WRT the whole sutra thing- I'm no Buddhist, but I never minded reading them. There's a lot of good in them; what I've gotten after reading the Dhammapada, etc. and various commentaries on Buddhist thought, was a little along the lines of:

-everybody's born with the keys to both heaven and hell, metaphorically speaking or not, as you please. And it's the same key for both, your choice.

-it is a nobler choice to open hell and let others out than to go for the rewards of heaven.

-those who are in hell regard all visitors as tormenting demons; even with your goodly intentions they see it as such. Getting through is the hard part, but then they can leave, which was your noble goal to begin with.

-sure there's more, but who wants to write a book here of all places?

Got mind seal?

[Phenix]

-sure there's more, but who wants to write a book here of all places? -Z



-those who are in hell regard all visitors as tormenting demons; even with your goodly intentions they see it as such. Getting through is the hard part, but then they can leave, which was your noble goal to begin with. -hs




if one always claiming chan this and chan that and wu wei and emptiness ....no need sutras... but in the same time claiming one inherit Chan, shaoLin......kuen kuit has Chan... Lets see how The 6th Patriach say about this issue :





To believe in the reality of objects or in Nihilism results in fallacious views or intensified ignorance respectively. "A bigoted believer in Nihilism blasphemes against the Sutras on the ground that literature (i.e., the Buddhist Scriptures) is unnecessary (for the study of Buddhism). If that were so, then neither would it be right for us to speak, since speech forms the substance of literature. He would also argue that in the direct method (literally, the straight Path) literature is discarded. But does he appreciate that the two words 'is discarded' are also literature? Upon hearing others recite the Sutras such a man would criticize the speakers as 'addicted to scriptural authority'. It is bad enough for him to confine this mistaken notion to himself, but in addition, he blasphemes against the Buddhist scriptures.

You men should know that it is a serious offence to speak ill of the Sutras, for the consequence is grave indeed! "He who believes in the reality of outward objects tries to seek the form (from without) by practicing a certain system of doctrine. He may furnish spacious lecture-halls for the discussion of Realism or Nihilism, but such a man will not for numerous kalpas realize the Essence of Mind. "We should tread the Path according to the teaching of the Dharma, and not keep our mind in a state of indolence, thereby creating obstacles to its understanding.----- six patriach platform sutra

[canglong]

On the Importance of Sarana Affirmation Thus said Master Rennyo: “There is a case where reading the Sutras is not reading the Sutras, and conversely, not reading the Sutras is reading the Sutras
Even though a person may be totally unlettered, if they are able to encourage others to listen and read the Sutras: to aid others in attaining the awakened mind of Amida Buddha, then they have understood the words of the Sutras even without reading a single one.

Should you not find the pearl after one or two divings, don't blame the ocean. (Paramahansa Yogananda)

[ZIM]

I probably shouldn't delve into this unhappiest of arguments, but- never fear- I'm still completely dumb.

WRT Buddhism in the West-

Phenix->
Some of the issues? problems? miscommunications? that have gone on may have something to do with the current transmission of the Dharma in the West versus what is traditional in the East. While I am in NO position to criticize the lineages of various Chan/Zen sects [Oh, wouldn't that be a joy. Flame-retardant gear required] there does seem to be some explanatory trends for this argument.

Perhaps, as an offer for clarification or understanding, I could offer some links that I found helpful?

Sanbo Kyodan Zen : The Heritage of Western Zen

A Critique of the Current State of American Zen

To all: I do NOT offer these as disparaging OR personal remarks to anyone! They are general critiques, not personal to CMAs, and not written by me. If they help in understanding, great- if not, apologies offered in advance.

With that, unless someone wants to talk about this more, I will go so you all can get back to your wing chunning.

[Rolling_Hand]

Originally posted by Hendrik

if one always claiming chan this and chan that and wu wei and emptiness ....no need sutras... but in the same time claiming one inherit Chan, shaoLin......kuen kuit has Chan... Lets see how The 6th Patriach say about this issue :

-------------------------------------


There's a mighty big difference between the 6th Patriach and the new wave-monk wanna be. Ch'an is always avaiable, but it does not belong to anyone. If you try to manufacture that jackhammer--Qoute"if one always claiming chan this and chan that and wu wei and emptiness ....no need sutras..." out of your own ego, that's your own problem, not the 6th Patriach or anyone else's!!! The phenomenal world that all human beings experience is fickle and flexible and also merciless. The donkey at your own yark makes you feel like you're on slippery ground.

[Phenix]

There's a mighty big difference between the 6th Patriach and the new wave-monk wanna be. --RH

That is very very very true! expecially to those wanna be who doesn't have lineage, teacher, not taking refuge with the tripple jewels, not taking precepts and always mis-lead people on "Empty, no need sutras..." As the 6th patriach said, if there is all empty then why even bother to post about Chan? Not to mention about making false claim? --HS

Ch'an is always avaiable, but it does not belong to anyone.--RH

Every living being has buddha nature thus capable to become buddha. As for Chan, one has to learn from a Teacher and get certified. Otherwise, it is heretic as written in the sutra. --HS





If you try to manufacture that jackhammer--Qoute"if one always claiming chan this and chan that and wu wei and emptiness ....no need sutras..." out of your own ego, that's your own problem, not the 6th Patriach or anyone else's!!! ----RH


Those who claim wu wei and emptiness and no need sutras is certainly out of thier own ego. They never read the Chan sutra such as Varja, or Surangama, or platform. They never have a teacher. They don't understand a thing but trying to clam as an expert of Chan.

However, it is every buddhist issue if such a person exist because there exist such a misleading person who misleading others. Certainly, for non buddhist or people without compassionate and have no sense of responsibility will claim it is not everyone else' problem. They are not buddhist and have no clue about the teaching of compassionate anyway. --HS


The phenomenal world that all human beings experience is fickle and flexible and also merciless. The donkey at your own yark makes you feel like you're on slippery ground. --RH

All Buddhas teaches,
One creates one's karma.. Do good will create good karma. Do evil will create bad karma. One asked for it. misleading others will create a karma of misleading oneself. one has to learn to be responsible for one's deed instead of blaming on others. Thus, one studies Chan to learn to responsible for one's existance.--HS


Just my two cents. "I" might be wrong.

[yuanfen]

ZIM- thanks for the two references.
The same old group on this list rather than sensibly discussing the differences basically end up focussing on the person of hendrik- specially so in RH's posts.
But no matter- getting back to your references.
Hendrik's reference is to the main stream of Chan as has come down through the patriarchs by direct instruction. There are enough gems in Buddhism that it spread rapidly- fragmenting into many variations. Japan alone has many sects.,,each with their own dogmatic walls. Junjiro Takakusus' "Essentials of Buddhism"
(out of print is a classic listing of various schools and their separate dogmas.) has a great list of sects and their differences.. The spreading of Buddhism in the west is also a mixed bag- with corruptions as one of your articles point out. And the sokkagokkais are into materialism.
Best not be fooled by "labels" just as in the spreading of wing chun.
In Japanese Buddhism--- Dogen spent quality time in China with masters. But Suzuki hasa following with his amoral approach. The
Rinzais tolerated Japanese fascism and racism. Suzuki translated the Lankavatara sutra but doesnt fully understand it.
Mainstream Chna is not an easy road- but it has its signature and indicators and it's ethics.

OTOH- in wing chun discussions on the net sometimes its hopeless. So- I will quit for the night. SPAR with resisting opponents and you will learn wing chun :-
These are complicated subjects and the personal attacks that have occurred on this thread shed little light.

[Phenix]

Joy,

Thanks.

Time to rest in peace. It is up to every one's free will to choose thier destination.

One can attack me. However, ultimately, one needs to face if what one preaches can release one from Samsara. It is that count. Hendrik doesn't matter.

Just hope everyone find thier path to bliss.

enough being said in this subject , time to Sign of from this subject now.

[Rolling_Hand]

<<Those who claim wu wei and emptiness and no need sutras is certainly out of thier own ego. They never read the Chan sutra such as Varja, or Surangama, or platform. They never have a teacher. They don't understand a thing but trying to clam as an expert of Chan.>>HS

<<Hendrik you have lost focus and do not adhere to the principles of Wu-wei because you only have questions and no answers only yin and no yang always different ways not the way. Regain your focus and find the way.>>Canglong

Hendrik,

"They don't understand a thing?"...Who are they? So, a thing, did "Your thing" give you that power to attack the others in public? "The man of highest power does not reveal himself as a possessor of power; Therefore he keeps his power. The man of inferior power cannot rid it of the appearance of power; Therefore he is in truth without power."--Lao Tzu "....trying to claim as an expert of Chan"...Who's this expert of Ch'an? So far, we've seen only you trying to act like one. Have you expanded the circle of your words the past year?

Canglong,

You have an ability to sense and know the higher truth. We understand that ordinary people are messengers of the Tao. Every man has three characters-that which he exhibits, that which he has, and that which he thinks he has.