How Internal is your External?

[Ravenshaw]

How internal is your external martial art? And how external is your internal? I've had (some) experience on both sides and this is what I've come to realize:

There is only so much external to learn. You condition your body, you learn the gross body movements and there you go: external. I have trained for only four years and already my focus in training has shifted from just doing to movements repetitively to incorporating concepts such as the six harmonies (body coordination and positioning), breathing correctly (so I don't tire myself needlessly), etc. The more I train, the more my skill depends on these internal concepts, and the more I see that I have yet to learn.

And they do not seem mystical or spiritual at all to me, but quite practical. For example, why would you want more tension in the arm that has completed a block than the simultaneous attack?

It just seems to me that internal concepts are less about learning how to throw a hadoken blast and more about applying proper mechanics to external movements. But, then, what is an "external" martial art and what is an "internal" martial art? One doesn't make much sense without the other.

*edit*

As a side note, some might consider the six harmonies external, but a point that I try to make is that there seems to be very little difference between internal and external... one just talks about chi and the internal organs more. Just my observations...

[count]

To much external training draws on internal health and to much internal training steals from external development.

[Laughing Cow]

Ravenshaw.

I think it is a misconception that internal arts talk a lot about "Chi", the term we hear the most is actually "Jin".

"Chi" is really rarely used,

Chen TJQ is a nice mix of internal and external components.

[Royal Dragon]

External according to the Royal Dragon:

Power is generated from the muscular of the limbs, and is often transmitted through the torso through the turning of the hipps in conjunction with the extension of the arms.

Internal:
powere is generated by the torso in an expansion - contraction - accordian like motion of the torso. This expansion radiates downward through the lesg, and up through the arms thus driving them forward.

The same body structure is used in both, external just works the muscles of the limbs more, and internal works the muscles of the torso more.

I belive BOTH are nessasary for optimal over all health.

[JusticeZero]

What do you have with "Power is generated by the torso in a curling/uncurling fashion and directed by the movement of the hips and pelvis"? I mean, there's lots of ways to generate power, and not many are based primarily around the muscles of the limbs.

[Water Dragon]

I'm a lot more worried about how hard I hit than if it's internal or external.

[Royal Dragon]

You can hit quite a bit harder with internal mechanics than external, but there is a much longer learning curve to get it right.

[JusticeZero]

...Well, yes, if you define "External" as "Body mechanics that suck" then yes, internal hits harder.. that's the only way i've seen it described, though. Honestly, as described, Boxing and Muay Thai are both internal arts. Both disdain the primary use of the muscles of the limb for power generation. Capoeira is an internal art. Heck, with most of my kicks, the leg is more or less limp. So my conclusion is that people can only define 'external' as 'sucks', and that no art uses it. A meaningless term, in short.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
I'm a lot more worried about how hard I hit than if it's internal or external.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. If I drop a guy, I don't care if it was internal or external mechanics that did it. Point is, he's down.

That said, however, I think there's alot more similarity between internal and external mechanics than some would care to admit.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
You can hit quite a bit harder with internal mechanics than external, but there is a much longer learning curve to get it right.

I dunno if Tyson got the memo about that...

[Christopher M]

How internal is your external martial art? And how external is your internal?

I think this question arises from a common confusion. When someone calls taiji, bagua, and xingyi the internal arts; and when someone asks about internal training in a martial art - these two cases are using the word internal in two entirely different ways.

The so-called internal arts are a family of common principles and pedagogy distinct from other families of arts. In this sense, internal chinese arts contra external chinese arts are phrases of the same sort as javanese silat contra sumatran silat.

In this sense, the above questions are meaningless. How external is my internal art? Not at all... it's an internal art.

Some people also like to talk about internal training; meaning such things as the aforementioned correct breathing or the six harmonies. This is entirely distinct from the above idea of the internal martial arts. Skillfull body usage isn't "internal", it's just "skillfull." Being good at your art isn't "internal", it's being good at your art. And arts other than the internal arts can be just as focussed on skill.

Finally, some people also like to talk about internal training; meaning specialized qigongs like iron body gongs. Again, this is entirely distinct from the above idea of internal martial arts. In fact, these things are almost entirely the domain of so-called external chinese martial arts. So talking about chi and doing chi gong is completely distinct from doing internal arts.

It's really a shame that all these ideas have become confounded.

Although, I think one of the biggest sources of confusion on the topic is people commenting about the internal arts who have no experience in them. Obviously, such comments should be taken with a grain of salt.

[yenhoi]

Attributes, skills, mechanics, health.

Internal and External are internet labels.