effectiveness of TKD to other arts.

[KFlearner]

Hello all,

Hi. I am new to this forum and am very interested in the forms of Kung Fu. To start I would like to say that reading through many of these posts, many of you seem very knowledgable and helpful to others. This is a great thing and I thank you for that.

Ok now my question. I am in TKD (Taekwondo) and a Green belt at the moment. I am curious to know how effective that it might be on the street or against ohter styles like kung fu. Thank you all in advance for answering my post.

Peace

[obiwan]

You may have noticed everyone side stepping this question cos they know it's *****ly.

Basically, because of the amount of bad schools of TKD out there, the TKD reputation is quite bad. There are just so many frauds out there teaching what little they know and claiming it as real TKD.

Also, modern TKD is different from traditional TKD. Traditional TKD had many more hand techniques. These were dropped to popularise and differentiate TKD from karate. Karate for punches and TKD for kicks was the mass media generalisation.

In my experience, (i speak for me personally ONLY)
I've never met a TKD i couldnt beat. Course i've only fought 3 or 4 too, so I have limited experience.

TKD, was just too easy to beat once you penetrate their extreme range attacks. (Those big kicks.) Up close, they're no challenge. (I reiterate, in MY experience!)

Headbutting, elbows, body slams and leg traps, the guys I fought had no defense.

I smart guy who did TKD i knew, always backed off. He couldnt beat me, but he knew not to let me into range. All he did was keep me back so that he couldnt get pummeled. Always just a faint, and then retreating.

He kenw the limitations of it, and tried to wear me down. That's about as effective as I've seen it.

Of course, some of those fancy kicks really do work, just out of surpise. You dont anticipate anyone could do the kick, so sometimes you get slammed just cause you were too busy going, "what a cool kick....BAM!"

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

The Force will be with you...always

[edziak]

As a Wing Chun person I would try to move in on you so I could use my chain punches and prevent you from using your kicks. I'm not going to dance with you. Once I got close to you I would continue to press forward trying to get to your head area.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that If I were TKD and I knew I was fighting a Wing Chun guy I would try not to let him get in close. I would keep him within kicking range.

[This message was edited by edziak on 01-14-01 at 11:48 PM.]

[KFlearner]

hey guys thanks for responding so quickly. I do understand that TKD is a long range MA. Let me reinerate a little on what I said earlier. Well my teacher is Korean (full) 7th dan black belt and we are traditional school. Now I do agree with you guys that it would be easy to pick me off short range. I realize this fact. Now my question is is what do you all think I should do with my martial arts experience. What I want to do is go through TKD, then find a good kung fu school, and know both. That sound good?

Ok well thanks again guys, and laters!!

KFlearner


P.S. anyone live in the seattle-bremerton area that knows of a good kung fu school?

[old jong]

I'm teaching wing chun to a friend who is a third degree black belt in tkd. He told me many times that he loves tkd as a sport and wc as a martial art. Of course it is his opinion and you can agree or not with it. Personnaly,I respect these powerfull kicks and would never take a high level tkd'er lightly!

C'est la vie!

[GinSueDog]

I think, depending on the way your training is in TKD it can be used with great effect. It all depends on the level of training and conditioning, plus a number of TKD schools like to mix in boxing hand work and train with heavy sparring. I have a friend that used to train with Allan Goes in BJJ and his first style was TKD and I can not picture him getting his ass kicked. It all depends.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[MonkeySlap Too]

Many CMA use very different principles for fighting strategy and power generation. Often doing TKD first can make it really hard to get the benefit from CMA. I've seen too many guys who could never get rid of the TKD body english.

[rogue]

I don't know about that monkey slap. In TKD class tonight we were working on full body power generation, just like many CMA teach. Strategies vary from art to art even within the CMA themselves, but proper power generation is the same no matter what.

KFLerner, if you're going to a good traditional school (which are rare in the states) it's very effective against other MA and in the streets. I visited a WTF style school that kicked butt. In the end though an arts effectiveness depends totally upon the individual.

In your school what patterns do you do and how often do you spar?

[obiwan]

That's a hard act to follow. TKD & Chinese martial arts have very different philosophies on movement.

To learn something as unrelated, to quote a great teacher, "You must unlearn what you have learned."

This very difficult. I have been to many different styles. I lose my patience very quickly before I say, "this is stupid, that doesnt make sense." Then I proceed to pummel the seniors who dont beleive me. the Sifu's rarely fight me. they have too much at stake. If they lose to me, then they will lose students.

At one Tong Bei school. I beat up the sifu. He then told me I wasnt allowed to kick because it left me vulnerable. Of course, we ended in a draw then. I couldnt beat him without the use of my legs.

That same night a student from that school left with me.

I am trying to suppress what I know, cos right now I am studying Shorinji kempo. But it's hard, because most of the moves seem sooo stupid to me.

The key is to unlearn and start again. The problem with me, is that for people who say my moves are dumb, I pummel them. They cant prove me wrong, where as i can.

5 nights ago, I sparred with a guy who did kendo for 20 years. As soon as I started to whirl my sword, he surrendered because he knew he couldnt win. I know this sounds arrogant, but I do not exaggerate. The guy lowered his sword and nodded, knowing that he couldnt win.

In contrast, that student i brought over from that school, had a hard time adjusting from 12 years of karate to kung fu. After 2 months, he adjusted and he told me how much his karate has improved because of kung fu training. He still goes to me school today, 1 year later.

So to really learn, you have to take some lumps, swallow the pride and fully embrace the style. I do for a short time before I lose my temper, I'm not a good example, it's my weakness.

But listen to Yoda, "Unlearn what you have learned!"

that's my best advice for changing systems.

The Force will be with you...always

[KFlearner]

Hey everyone. Rogue we are a WTF school and to Tae-Geuk 1-8 and then black belt poomse which of course I have not gotten to yet. We spar every friday. I go to both classes everyday, so I get two sparring classes which is nice. I do good for my size/weight, and conditioning I guess. So if I were to (after going through TKD) start in Kung fu, which art would e most useful to add to myself? thanks again all. you too yoda!!

peace

[MonkeySlap Too]

Rogue, you are wrong. Really.

There may be similarities, but there are significant differences. If you do not see them, your CMA teacher does not have a correct transmission of knowledge, or you are blind to it.

Saying 'full body power' does not mean anything. Chung Moo Quan guys used to say that all the time.

Find yourself a good Pi Gua teacher, or Ba Ji, or South Mantis or Chen TaiJi. You will find many, varied methods that are NOT identical to TKD training. (of course, they may not care to share this with you, which is too bad.)

This does not mean you can't be strong and tough with your TKD, but it is not what I am talking about.

No offense intended - just trying to be clear.

[rogue]

KFLerner, Go onto the main forum and post a message to Robin. She's a 2nd degree BB in WTF and is learning a Mantis style. She'd be able to answer your questions better than I could.

Though I can't vouch for the validity of Obiwans examples, he is right about "So to really learn, you have to take some lumps, swallow the pride and fully embrace the style." I moved from JKD and Muay Thai to karate. It was only after embracing the karate that I finally got it. Before that it looked like nonsense.

MonkeySlap, what is this mystical element of movement and power generation that only the Chinese are able to do and have kept hidden for so long?
There are people in non-CMA that also understand the same principles found in CMA. It may be rare to see in the average TKD or McDojo school, but it's the above average ones that I'm talking about.

No offense taken

[This message was edited by rogue on 01-16-01 at 08:36 AM.]

[UberShaman]

The first school I attended with really effective training was the TKD school of a Master Koong.
He was a hardcore military man who had us grappling, training with knives etc. After he closed up shop I was very dissapointed to learn this wasnt the norm in TKD

[MonkeySlap Too]

Nothing mystical about it at all. Just different understandings of how to generate power. Go see for yourself. Descriptions are just words.

For the record, I would love to see some objective comparisons of striking power using these different methods. I have seen some pretty strong Karate strikers, and frankly Boxing punches tend to have some real oomph - although I haven't seen anyone hit as hard as Wai Lun Choi or Kai Yu. For that matter Wellem DeThouras hits incredibly hard as well.

But anyways - see for yourself. The principles often are different, and they benefit your art.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[rogue]

I didn't see anything superior when I took WC, or is that the exception?