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Thread: Whats the best style for quick and powerful self defense?

  1. #46
    omegapoint Guest

    Lost Disciple...

    I see you live in Austin. Do you know of Ronald Lindsey of Bastrop? He is a Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu Kyoshi who trained with Kise, Yuichi Kuda and Hohan Soken. His fighting principles are awesome (and very Chinese in their approach).

    I have trained in Judo, Boxing, Kuntao, Shorinkan and Matsumura Seito Shorin. Maybe you had contact with the sport oriented Shorin Ryuha? I can't say that I agree with you on your assessment of Shorin, but you're entitled to your evaluation of the art. I found my skills served me well in the Philippines, as they were empirically tested a few times. Most of my self-defense success was due to Shorin ryu principles.

    I gather from the "concise" description of your meeting with Fusei Kise you weren't impressed. I know for a fact that although not too personable, Kise is known as a tough and very knowledgeable martial artist on Okinawa.

    Uechi Ryu is a very good system, that teaches the sound fighting principles of PangaiNoon. Sensei Lindsey also studied Uechi Ryu in Okinawa. The difference between the fighting efficacy of Uechi and Shorin is nil in my opinion, and we also practice "body-hardening", low kicks, toe kicks, alot of open handed techs, tuite, pp, etc.

    Kadena is a beautiful base (if that's where you were stationed) and the Okinawan people are pretty cool! Thanks for clarifying the language of the Uchinanchu. Later... :D

  2. #47
    Lost_Disciple Guest
    Oops. I'm too lazy to change my profile. I moved to Lubbock from Austin a year ago. I've been back three times since for short periods.

    I don't know anything about those instructors you were talking about, I didn't head out to Bastrop much. If I ever go back, I'll try to check them out, but it looks like I'll probly be moving to Baltimore.

    Listen, I didn't mean to trash Kiisei. Whatever I've known, seen, or heard about him in the past, I have no right or reason to use as villification of this man. It's a sad thing in martial arts when people only worry about the negative. To his credit, I think he instructs really well, I think his school(s) in the States are doing well, and he's well known in Okinawa. After meeting him on a few occasions, I just had no desire to study with him. Nothing bad about him, just a personal preference. Sorry if my comment seemed to infer anything besides that.

    Like I said before, I knew a ton of Karate people on Okinawa, I also met quite a few Okinawan masters. It was probably a waste though, considering I was doing kung fu even at that time- I think someone else would've enjoyed the opportunity a lot more. I honestly don't remember seeing any Shorin Ryu fighters, or Goju Ryu for that matter. I saw a lot of fights with fighters from Pangai Noon (thanx for reminding me of the Uechi style's new name), as well as Seidokan- I'd never heard "seidokaikan" until I came to the US, are those 2 the same? Plus, on TV there were always the kyokushin fights.

    One more thing, Uchinaguchi may even be a b*stardization of the original word, considering the suffix "guchi" is the Japanese word for mouth. B*stardization or not, everyone on Okinawa knows the Okinawan language as Uchinaguchi or Okinawan Hougen. Admittedly I was just trying to show off. :D hehehe I lived on Kadena for about 2 and a half years, my parents stayed there for 4 while I went off to college. I love that island, that base, and all the beaches- I used to work at Kadena Marina.
    I dream of being able to go back there some day.

    .

  3. #48
    omegapoint Guest

    Cool...

    L.D.: It's not like I'm totally enthralled by Kise. I know that he is a great Karateka, but to be honest with you I haven't been impressed with any of the Kenshinkan guys that I've seen thus far. According to very reliable sources Kise doesn't even teach the complete rendering of Matsumura Orthodox that he learned from Hohan Soken. His Kenshinkan style is becoming tournament oriented and losing much of its street efficacy. So I don't take any of your comments to heart. No harm, no foul! I was just making the comment that as a warrior Kise is about as raw as they come. He's mean, athletic, intelligent and strong. That doesn't mean that what he teaches, who he teaches it to, and how he teaches it is the final word in MAs.

    The Uechi family doesn't really like having their family name used to identify a style of Karate. Since it is the Chinese-derived art of PangaiNoon, it would only be right to call it by its original nomenclature.

    What style of CMA do you train in? You're like me. When I was in the Philippines I didn't take advantage of all the great Arnis/Silat/Escrima practitioners they had there and instead concentrated on Shorinkan and Filipino/Chinese Kuntaw. Many of the Karate dojos and schools on Okinawa are commercialised to the bone anyway, and it was even stated by Sensei Kuda of Matsumura Shorin/Kenpo that the best and most innovative instructors of Ryukyuan MAs now reside in the U.S. (although many are on the down-low like Sensei Lindsey, in tiny-assed Bastrop).

    I will agree with you that Kadena and Okinawa was off-the-hook and I wish to return one day to seek out a couple of old Masters who now teach very selectively in their backyards. Anyway, good luck in life and the MAS and it was cool connecting with you! Peace... :D

  4. #49
    Lost_Disciple Guest
    Well I was trying to talk more about not focusing on the negatives in martial arts rather than beg for forgiveness from Kiise followers.

    I knew that bit about the Uechis, I just could never remember the name "PangaiNoon". I'd been calling it Uechi Ryu since I'd heard about it and a few months before I left Oki they started telling me that wasn't the name. I got some copies of some papers from Kathy Baxter-Lukopolus of Goju Ryu that detailed a lot of the exchange between China and Okinawa, leading to the formation of the different karate styles. They talked about the origins of PangaiNoon as well as Goju- which styles of kung fu they came from and which provinces.

    When I was in Okinawa I studied under Norm Burland, who'd studied Green Dragon (SL Martin style out of NJ) in Hawaii until his sifu left, then 2 years under Master Chuek of Hawaii (White Crane & Choy Li Fut), and finally between 6 months and a year under Vernon Rieta (Hung Gar and Choy Li fut) before getting transferred off Hawaii. Sifu Norm had been training for about 10 years under Master Hokama Masamitsu (Chen Taiji, Simplified Taiji, and Hsing Yi) who teaches in Shuri. Norm was a certified instructor under Hokama. Someone else on this board studies under Hokama as well. We used to go down there on Sundays. Shortly after I joined though, Norm stopped going down there and started going to the Okinawa City Taiji club- a member of the Japanese Wushu Taiji Federation. There he perfected his competition forms and picked up 42 step sword as well as 42 step open hand. His lineage may be ugly but he knows how to use what he's got.

    I learned a lot of what Norm had in a relatively short time cuz I hung out with him everyday. I was sad to go off to college.

    My junior year of college I got a co-op with IBM in Austin and started training of Jeff Hughes of the Kung Fu Exchange (7* Praying mantis) and went up to Round Rock for Sifu Pickens' Shuai Chiao class to learn some basics.

    Came back to college about a year ago, unfortunately. In early may I started training everyday with a friend of my roommates who'd done San Da in Taiwan. I learned some of the western boxing and he helped me improve my kicks and my shuai chiao. It was only 2 months of training but I learned a lot, and I think I got a bit better.

    Might be moving to Baltimore soon and hopefully I'll get to train with Tai Yim.

    I'm not an instructor of any style, nor more than a beginner in anything. My problem is due to the fact that I've been moving around about every 6 months to a year for the last 8 years. If I'd stayed 8 years in one style, I'd probably be almost decent by now. Hopefully my next move will be my last one for a long time.

    Sorry for the long post. Probably a lot more history than you wanted to know.

    [This message was edited by Lost_Disciple on 07-16-01 at 10:59 PM.

    [This message was edited by Lost_Disciple on 07-16-01 at 11:01 PM.]

  5. #50
    IcedSamurai Guest
    Arnis ;D

    --------
    Come, visit me and my floating island of serenity.. the Kingdom of the Winds..

  6. #51
    Raimondo Guest
    originally posted by unclaimed effort

    "Raimondo, by properly do you mean exposing your whole centerline?"

    By properly I mean grappling your opponent effectively, so it is harder for them to escape while you knee them, and therefore making it harder for them to strike back at you. In fights I've been in, distances tend to be closed quickly (although that could be just the way I am trained to fight, making close up strikes (knees and elbows) and grapples more effective, and untrained swings less effective.

    Last time I checked, thai boxing was not wing chun, and does not use centrelines.

  7. #52
    toddbringewatt Guest

    Quick and Powerful?

    I love kung fu. But for QUICK and powerful? I'd say screw kung fu altogether (kung fu means skill over TIME). Check out www.scars.com and learn how to destroy bodies from a man who's actually done it -- ALOT of it.

    Quote from the founder of SCARS: "The smell of feces stays with you forever." Referring to men he's actually killed first hand -- the victim craps himself. Not pretty but shows you the level of violence one may have to actually confront if one is going to train for real-life combat.

    may the force be with you

  8. #53
    MIKSANSOO Guest
    I knew there was a scars guy in here. :p

    "you can take my life, but not my confidence"
    Jimmy H. Woo

  9. #54
    toddbringewatt Guest
    Not a SCARS guy. Just read about it and it seemed like an effective system for someone who wanted to be able to handle run-of-the mill thug situations with minimal training time. The founder of SCARS has undeniable experience if you believe his press -- which I do.

    Anyway, I'm a "want to be an excellent fighter" guy. I'm interested in more advanced training that might take me much longer to master than an intensive one week training seminar but that will bring me to a level where I am able to handle advanced fighters/multiple fighters in a hostile combat situation.

    I have the opportunity to study Jook Lum Mantis with one of Henry Poo Yee's students. That's the route I'm going to take for now.

    Any suggestions?

    may the force be with you

  10. #55
    bigjoe Guest
    running away always works for me.

  11. #56
    wingchunwsl Guest
    bigjoe, that's a good one.

    i'd have to say that it's up to the person. maybe someone with longer and stronger legs might want to try out something like tkd. maybe a smaller, weaker guy might want to try out wing chun.

    i tried out tkd for a couple of years but at the end, i knew it wasn't something really for me. my kicks weren't as strong and i didn't have as much balance needed to follow through with a tough kick.

    since i'm a smaller guy, short range fighting is something that works for me. that's why i practice wing chun. i personally liked the idea of using my hands more than my feet and the kicks are low so i wouldn't lose my balance.

    i'd say wing chun is a very effective style (i'm biased though) as well as choy lee fut since there are high, medium, low kicks, different knuckle strikes, sweeping, chin na, throwing, swings, etc. it's a complete system and that's what i like about it.

    i think crosstraining two styles could be something effective too. i'm thinking about mixing my wing chun with something else- probably an internal style though- in a couple of years when i'm out to college. :p

  12. #57
    wingchunwsl Guest

    grappling...

    frankly, i'd have to say that grappling is something one shouldn't use in a real fighting situation. when grappling, you expose way too much of yourself and it takes a long time to finish an opponent. what if you were rolling on the floor with a guy trying to steal your wallet... he might have a partner and his partner could just stab you while you're on the floor.

    if someone wanted to learn grappling, i'd advise him/her to learn a striking art also... maybe muy thai, boxing, kickboxing and use the grappling as a "back-up" weapon.

    i'm not posting this message as an attack against grapplers. i'm sorry if i've offended anyone but this is just my honest opinion.

  13. #58
    omegapoint Guest

    TakeOnesDo?

    TKD for street fighting? What the fizuck?! Reality ain't what you want it to be, it's what it is!

  14. #59
    ged Guest
    wingchunsl - definitely. i have a friend called simon, who just got the under 18s national title for brazilian ju jitsu. he has a lot of stories about guys from his (BJJ) club and the fights theyve gotten into - one guy, who is the queensland champion, got tackled in a bar. i dont remember the technical term, but he went to the ground with the other guy, and ripped all the ligaments in the attackers shoulder. at this point, the attackers friend stomped on the BJJ guys head 5 times, knocking him out.

    i still plan on doing BJJ one day tho, just to see what its like.

  15. #60
    Sharky Guest
    Takeonesdough... lol... classic... have to remember that...

    My anus is superiorâ„¢

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