What makes TJQ so hard to master?

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
From A chinese perspective it is only the eyes which the spirit manifests through. The rest of the face is not connected with the spirit, however I suppose that a different reason why the face should be relaxed is that ant head/face level tension will probably result in too much Qi being held high in the body and it could detract from sinking down to the Dan Tien.

Profound insight! In the ancient Mesopotamian (I forget whether it was Mycaenean, Sumerian, or Minoan) created idols of gods with huge hollow eye sockets. It was believed that "eyes are the window to the soul"

[Kevin Wallbridge]

A profound insight but... well... wrong.

While Shen is clearly seen in the eyes it is also considered (from a medical diagnostic point of view) visible in the facial expression, quality of breathing, clarity of voice, relative ease of body movements, posture, clarity of thinking etc.

So relaxing the facial muscles makes good sense within the Chinese physical paradigm.

[StickyHands]

Are you ok?? How can you declare that whether right or wrong? Did I mention anything about Taiji? I only analyzed about what he said about eyes being connected to the spirit and added henceforth, in the ancient Mesopotamian beliefs, similar sort of introspections were followed.

[Laughing Cow]

Dre-doggx.

Shen should be trained at a later stage, AFAIK.

You will need to express shen with your whole being, thoughts and so on.
Not easy, but you can see the difference between a practicioner that uses shen and one that simply does the form.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

Eh so what's shen?

So in Taiji, first u learn to develop qi, practice forms, wuji, fajin, and then shen? Do you mind elaborating how all of this is perhaps achieved? Just interested from a subjective POV?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Eh so what's shen?

So in Taiji, first u learn to develop qi, practice forms, wuji, fajin, and then shen? Do you mind elaborating how all of this is perhaps achieved? Just interested from a subjective POV?

Have you read the following:

Five Word Formula By Li I Yu

There are other good and free translations of the classics online.
Much won't make sense till you trained for some time.

They can epxlain better and in shorter words than I can. Nearly everything that you need to know about TJQ theory is there.

Cheers.

P.S: The Chen Classiscs differ in some aspects from the Yang Classics.

[StickyHands]

Thanks a lot LC. Is that Yang or Chen's theory? Do you have anymore 'easy and basic' explanations to Chen's theories and principles? Thanks. Now back to reading...

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Thanks a lot LC. Is that Yang or Chen's theory? Do you have anymore 'easy and basic' explanations to Chen's theories and principles? Thanks. Now back to reading...

Those are Yang, Lee Scheele also has a good translations.

Chen are more difficult not that much has been translated yet, I will compile a lsit of sites for you.
Need to hunt through my Bookmarks (too many).

The Chinafrominside Site also has some info on the Chen ones.

Cheers.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I don't agree with the whole face being of clinical significance to quality of Shen at all. I suspect that most practitioners wouldn't agree with it at all. Shen Ming is after all the qualitive sparkle/whiteness in the eyes which is considered the obvious and primary symptom of Shen or lack of qualitive Shen.

The facial muscles don't, by and large, indicate Shen at all. Someone could have very welll refined shen but have Bells Palsy or some other facial paralysis, but you would just by their face denote them as Spiritually flat would you? Shen should be whole bodied manifest as it would be apparent in your actions, attitude, speech etc that one's shen was refined and abundant but I have never heard of the whole face being the significant indicator on a physical level at all.

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
The facial muscles don't, by and large, indicate Shen at all. Someone could have very welll refined shen but have Bells Palsy or some other facial paralysis, but you would just by their face denote them as Spiritually flat would you?

I believe that in argument your point is known as a straw dog.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Sticky, I'm sorry if you felt that I had called your Mesopotamian thing wrong, I was refering to the quote that you had called "profound."

RM, you may not agree, but I have to say that my opinion is not that of an amateur. I teach at a school of Chinese medicine, and I have studied diagnostics. Shen is visible in many ways not just the eyes. I have personally trained over 100 practitioners of Chinese medicine, and I hope that they all understand the range of indications of Shen that can be observed.

Sometimes I think the hardest thing about mastering Taiji is getting past our own ideas about what we think Taiji is (this is not personally directed at anyone here, I really feel that it is a universal difficulty).

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Kevin Wallbridge
Sometimes I think the hardest thing about mastering Taiji is getting past our own ideas about what we think Taiji is (this is not personally directed at anyone here, I really feel that it is a universal difficulty).

I am inclined to agree with this.

Quiet a few practicioners that I met have told me that initially they read a lot about TJQ but as they progressed they stopped as it was holding them back.

One of the reason why questions about Qi, Shen, Fa-jing and similar keep popping up, IMO.

I myself have started to do the same thing and now only read what is pertaining to my style and than only from a few people that my Sifu recommends.

There are quiet a few other similarities, but that is best left for another thread.

Cheers.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We will practice, we will train, we will study, we will read.. and at some point we will have direct personal experiences that validate or invalidate our beliefs.. it can be offered to you, thrown at you, or beat into you, but.. we, ourselves alone, accept or reject whatever notions are presented.. Gather the most experiences possible, keep an open mind, and.. listen to your own intuitions/insights, the truth reveals itself...

Why is Taijiquan so hard to master?.. sometimes i sense that the difficulty is in unlearning so much of the indoctrinated values that are contrary to the "natural" beings we actually are.. working with certain unverifiable concepts, unverifiable as in intangible.. Othertimes, i sense that we get in our own way, too eager to assume that our own path is the most valid and missing the wisdoms offered by others.. not unlike the debates on this forum, people assume that someone else's experiences are invalid because they don't conform to their perspective.. and they do so without any evidence or knowledge of the other person's capabilities/experiences..

The best instruction i have had has considered every aspect of Taijiquan.. a single posture and transition may have taken as much as a month to thoroughly explore.. and, in each case the principles were evaluated, the applications were tested and refined.. the Chi involvement and pathways examined and the rooting emphasized.. after the basic introduction of the posture/transition, each student's character, inclinations and abilities were evaluated and the movement added to their form in such a way as to develop the student's personal Taijiquan, not a group of rote imitators mimicking their instructor, but.. individuals developing Taijiquan consistent in principle and consistent with the individual they are..

Taijiquan is an orchestration of many physical systems, difficult in and of itself..it is also an orchestration of energies, concepts and theories, compounding the difficulty.. even when we have enough experience to manage these variables, the delicate balance of the variables that we call Taijiquan is elusive and can be compromised by even the slightest inconsistency.. Impatience and lack of determination are the biggest enemies of progress, ego is the enemy of quality..

Oh, and Taijiquan is just plain difficult to encompass so many nuances.. mostly, we are too lazy and distracted to find the essence of its power..

Just my own perspective, not right/not wrong, just mine... Be well..

[Repulsive Monkey]

The accolade you speak of sounds honourable, to some, but quality of Shen is primarily looked for in the eyes, you are aware of Shen Ming I take it???

Do you feel that I haven't studied diagnostics by your sweeping statement?

Shen disturbance and obscuration will also manifest in behavioural signs and symptoms and these too have clinical significance, however if you want to take a pulse, one goes to the radial artery, if wants to do a tounge diagnosis one asks the patient to open their mouth, and primarily if one wants to measure the qualitative value of a patients Shen, one ought to look at their Shen Ming in their eyes.

This is text book stuff!

[Prairie]

Good thought Christopher!

When one thinks of mastery, though, one is often thinking of a comparable level at least to their instructor. Why am I not as "good" at taiji as my instructor? Time spent practicing mostly. Natural talent may be partly the answer as well - though hard to say. One can't compare oneself to someone who has been practicing many many many years longer than oneself.

So, given my belief that making this comparison is like comparing apples and oranges.... I agree totally with Christopher.