how many forms do you think there are in wah lum?

[EarthDragon]

And we wonder why other styles and arts look down and call kung fu practioners form collecters.

with numbers said in this post like 150 ,400+ 300 how can anyone take our art seriously?

The time it takes to master just one form and all it applications should be enough, but to learn that many moves with no understanding or application is like an egg with no yoke ................. all you have is an empty shell. No wonder why kung fu in this day and age are being laughed at form the UFC, MMA and the hard core fighters of today.

[Chop Socki]

And we wonder why other styles and arts look down and call kung fu practioners form collecters.

with numbers said in this post like 150 ,400+ 300 how can anyone take our art seriously?

The time it takes to master just one form and all it applications should be enough, but to learn that many moves with no understanding or application is like an egg with no yoke ................. all you have is an empty shell. No wonder why kung fu in this day and age are being laughed at form the UFC, MMA and the hard core fighters of today.

What a bizarre way to interpret a system's wealth of history and tradition as a reason to feel ashamed. I'll match your 'egg with no yoke' parable with one of my own: the art does not define the artist. If my student handbook was 47 volumes long and contained thousands of forms developed over hundreds of years, is it safe to make broad assumptions about the practitioners of my style based on that alone? Or could one instead infer that the breadth of material allows one to tailor their knowledge to the techniques that best suit their body style, interests and abilities? I believe I'd prefer the opportunities afforded by a rich system over all of the 'one size fits all' offerings. And if I should choose to take the wrong path and become a form collector instead of someone who seeks the deeper meaning hidden within a smaller number of forms, shame on me, but that's no fault of my system.

There are 2 different conversations going on here - the material that comprises the Wah Lum system and the number of forms that Master Chan knows. Certainly they're very different things.

Practice! Practice!

- CS

[EarthDragon]

agreed, I simply made a statment. If you have over 400 forms you cant possibly know any of them.

What good is having a quiver full of arrows if you cant draw the bow?

seems lie you wasted a lot of money on nothing

[Chop Socki]

I'm in complete agreement that an individual with 400 forms is, with very few exceptions, very likely to be a master of none. On the other hand, saying that a system shouldn't be taken seriously because it offers a wide range of 'stuff' that can be tailored to individual needs is a pretty big leap imho, and that's how I interpreted your statement 'how can anyone take our art seriously'. Apologies if I misunderstood your intent.

No harm, no foul.

- CS

[EarthDragon]

Oh I see , my intention was not to say anything about the system, just that I can see how MMA, UFC and other styles pick on kung fu when people come on the interent and say they have even 50 forms.

That is ridiculous in my opinon. we have only 10 and I am still learning them after 16 years. To learn is not to collect. and when you collect you did not learn.

Their is a guy who teahes in my city that claims to have 8 black belts. How could anyone take this guy seriously? this is the problem with MA today to many of these situations and not enough training..........

[mantid1]

Im not against someone having a lot of forms. If the person enjoys doing forms more than running everyday...so be it.

If a student from one system has 50 forms and another from another style only has a few from his own style.....but neither one has ever stepped into the ring more than one time to prove themselves...what does it matter?

Having 1 or 100 forms does not make a peson a good fighter. Even if a guy knows the random apps out of his 3 forms...who says they are good techniques or he can apply them?

Can somone give me an example of more than one or two people from seven star, eight step....etc who are fighting mma or ufc style fighting that has been a winner?

You can just list one if you like.

They are not laughing at the chinese martial arts because wah lum has 100 forms

They are laughing because they know if a traditionally trained chinese martial artists steps in the ring and fights the way 8 step or other traditional mantis styles fight that the mantis guy will get his ass kicked in a hurry.

Sorry to have to break it down for you all like that.

If someone does not agree I encourage you to get in the ring and make a good name for the mantis community.

Im not saying traditional arts are not good for self defense and the most important thing to stay healthy.....but they may not be the best method of fighting out there.

If you want to learn to fight.....you have to fight...and fight.....and fight.

[EarthDragon]

Im not against someone having a lot of forms. If the person enjoys doing forms more than running everyday...so be it.

I am not against it either, I just think its a waste of time to learn that many forms without true knowledge of the first one.

If a student from one system has 50 forms and another from another style only has a few from his own style.....but neither one has ever stepped into the ring more than one time to prove themselves...what does it matter?again a quiver full of arrows without learning how to draw the bow. whats the point?

Having 1 or 100 forms does not make a peson a good fighter. Even if a guy knows the random apps out of his 3 forms...who says they are good techniques or he can apply them?

then why go on to learn more? this is my point

Can somone give me an example of more than one or two people from seven star, eight step....etc who are fighting mma or ufc style fighting that has been a winner?

nope but the street is the other medium.


They are not laughing at the chinese martial arts because wah lum has 100 forms

They are laughing because they know if a traditionally trained chinese martial artists steps in the ring and fights the way 8 step or other traditional mantis styles fight that the mantis guy will get his ass kicked in a hurry.

but thier still laughing..... and then when they read so and so knows 350 forms

Sorry to have to break it down for you all like that.

no apolgies needed just conversation


Im not saying traditional arts are not good for self defense and the most important thing to stay healthy.....but they may not be the best method of fighting out there.

true however mantis is incrediably practical and I have used it many times in my years of fighting, bouncing and security. but if you cant use what you have already learned then why would one seek more?

If you want to learn to fight.....you have to fight...and fight.....and fight.

is this not the basis for martial arts?
want to look good and graceful in empty forms? try Wushu nothing worng with it and some people devote thier life to it but what are they looking to achive?



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Last edited by mantid1 : Today at 08:14 PM.

[Chop Socki]

You know... after all these years of studying martial arts (over 20 and counting!), I still laugh when I hear or read someone express the belief that if you don't routinely beat people up in bars or back alleys, you haven't proven the validity of your style.

Years ago, I was that guy who was always looking for a reason to be teed off, and I saw the slightest accidental nudge or the look that lasted more than a second to be a challenge - one that, more often than not, I acted on. Then I discovered martial arts. The odd thing, looking back, is that even from the very beginning, the appeal wasn't to learn newer and better ways to beat people up - it was to channel my misplaced aggression into something more positive. The result? When I knew nothing, I fought constantly. As an experienced martial artist (who has proven himself in both the ring and the alley), I just don't fight anymore. Can I? Absolutely! But now, I'm not looking for a reason to let fly, and I realize that a bump is just a bump, a look is just a look, and that tough guy in my face in the alley just isn't enough of a challenge to merit a response. Like the car with an alarm, a confident martial arts says 'you'll have better luck elsewhere' without opening his mouth.

For my friend EarthDragon, another parable: it's been said that when you study martial arts dilligently for 1 year, you can defeat two men in combat; after 2 years, you can defeat three men. After 10 years... it isn't an issue, because you don't fight anymore.

Sorry mantid... I'm not being judgemental, just sharing my philosophy and the benefit of my experience. I hope you find something of value in this novel!

with respect,

- CS

[DocWho]

Chop Socki,

Well said my friend. Your point is make very clear on the road of a martial artist.

Here is an excerpt from - http://www.chinahand.com/shaolin/sl_.../slhistory.htm

SHAOLIN CHUAN
As a Martial Art
1. Form is a consecutive series of movements linked together to FORM a pattern designed to bring about some change within the practioner.
2. Introduces basic martial techniques (strikes, blocks, etc.).
3. Begins coordination training.
4. Utilizes the body's External Energy by using techniques rather than internal energy. This is the traditional teaching method prior to learning internal arts.
5. Instills an appreciation of martial arts as a life art rather than a destructive art, by causing an awareness of body strengths, weaknesses and limitations.
As a Health Exercise
1. Introduces the concept of balanced flowing movements.
2. Much of the training is dedicated to strengthening muscles and tendons. This is accomplished by extreme movements and abrupt changes in directions (advancing/retreating, sinking/rising, etc.). This training brings about improved agility, balance, flexibility, and will benefit one's overall health.
3. Institutes a daily program of exercise which is cardiovascular in nature.
As a Performance
1. When you practice you perform.
2. Performance is exercise for the Spirit and Mind.

[DocWho]

With great sincerity, I would like this thread to continue discussing about the forms of Wah Lum Praying Mantis. In doing so, we can learning more about their lineage.

[mantid1]

I think that the CMA is much more than just fighting. Face it...you can teach a student to fight in the first few months...if you cant your style is not so great.

Why would the old masters develop such indepth systems that incorporate Chinese culture..medicine if it were only about fighting?


I would feel sorry for the person who trains for a few hours a day several times a week because they may get into a fight. To me that is a paranoid person who needs to see their Chinese medicine man to get things balanced out.....or to make it easier get a script for prozac or other drug to take the demons out of our head. When we are not being chased by shadows we do not have to train for the fight as hard.

Not trying to be disrespectfull to anyone....I just think the CMA offers benefit the society as a whole in many different ways.....not just the 3% of the population that want to fight.

[SoCo KungFu]

As I said above, the Leopard Form came from Mok Gar. The first Spear set in the curriculum is from Lau Gar.

Yeah I knew the leopard set came from Mok family. That's interesting about the spear though. I haven't seen any other spear sets with the Lau name I'll admit. But I was to understand that southern spear tends to draw power from the lead hand as opposed to the rear hand which is more northern and what is found in this spear set. I just figured it was a different Lau than the one in the 5 southern families.

I'm more interested in the other techniques though.

So if MC's family trained in Mok Gar, did he continue to learn Mok Gar after meeting LKS? If he started from LKS at such a young age I would think he would have had to. I don't think there is any way for him to have gained enough experience in Mok to make additions and such at that young an age and in such little time. Did MC make a lot of the southern additions or was it that guy that taught MC after LKS passed?

Also what about the other techniques? Such as the kui sows; the elbow, low backfist, high backfist combos and such that are often in southern material (though with different stances); etc? Where did all that other stuff come in?

[EarthDragon]

chop
For my friend EarthDragon, another parable: it's been said that when you study martial arts dilligently for 1 year, you can defeat two men in combat; after 2 years, you can defeat three men. After 10 years... it isn't an issue, because you don't fight anymore.

LOL beat up 2 guys at the same time within 1 year of training????? thats why parables are not always the truth.

But whatever, OK point taken lets take fighting out of the equasion as I no longer fight myself and of course thier is much more to kung fu than fighting we all know that and that is not my point nor the reason i responded in the firtst place however it is the basis of the art.

all my point is if you are a martial arts practioner and you have more 10 times more information than you can apply you are learning unneccessary information even if you are simply collecting forms.

whatever floats your boat, but lets be real TCMA is about fighting whether you like to fight or have never fought in your life its still about MARTIAL warfare. again if you like to show lots of forms then pratice Wushu..... no one will laugh when you can demonstrate 280 emtpy forms with no application.

Doc
sorry to highjack your thread just thought that was funny and needed mentioned. I know nothing of Chan Pui other than crosssing hands with him on Goldenrod Rd many moons ago and he is a gentleman and a great guy.

[DocWho]

Earthdragon,

This is not my thread. I simply am interested in various branches of the mantis system. In your 8 Step studies, have you learned the section 1 to 6 forms which was the original creation of:

Chiang Hua Long (Master of Plum Flower Praying Mantis)
Wang Zhong Qing (Master of Bagua)
Chen De Shan (Master of Hsing-Yi and Tong-Bei)

From the information I gathered these forms were the heart of the 8 Step Praying Mantis system. I found these information from www.8-step.com.

[woliveri]

After this thread started I've since moved to Shanghai and started Bagua Zhang. I used to love Wah lum for the nice forms they had.

I've since found the quality of this bagua is fantastic, the more I see the more it amazes me,

The Wah Lum of Bagua but better as my teacher points out every application and we drill and 'lock horns'.

He said he will teach me all he knows too so perhaps one day I'll be the MC of Bagua.. Ha ha ha...