Fencing and understanding TMA

[GeneChing]

Ah, but you all forget, fencing was not always a killing art. Many duels were fought to satisfaction - first blood. There a flick was somewhat viable, especially in the duelling weapon of epee. Cut the opponent's wrist and the duel might be settled.

Actually the electrification of the weapon made for a different kind of flick hits. Since the electric point gave the tip more weight, you can really flick it over the guard nicely. Now in foil, that doesn't matter so much since the target is limited to the torso - the vitals. In epee, flickers can be dispensed with by good stop thrusts, since the wind up for a flick, especially with the heavier epee, exposes the wrist. I can't say anything about electric saber since I've never played it. So while flicking is a problem with 'traditionalists' training to kill, it's not as much of a problem as point fighter taps, as I see it. When you have a sharp blade, you don't need that much power. You definately don't need knock-out power. Really, how much power does it take to shave?

[TigerJaw]

This is true and the flick hit as such is a noble technique. It was the overly bendy swords that allowed any numpty with no hand finesse to be able to wrap the sword round and hit you on the back. The competition then becomes about height and jumping about the place with less emphasis on swordsmanship.

I'm not saying that fencing is no good. Just that I stopped enjoying it when it changed.

[Ky-Fi]

Tigerjaw,

Isn't the move you're talking about called the Passata di Soto, where you crouch low, put your left hand on the floor and lunge low? I thought that was legal---I've seen it all my fencing books, and I've tried it a few times and none of the coaches said it was illegal (although I think they said something about making sure your knee wasn't touching?) I'm not sure. I haven't gone to competitions yet, so I'm just speaking from club experience.

Regarding the flick....I personally refuse to learn it, for most of the reasons Tigerjaw said. Even though modern fencing is not the same as learning historical swordfighting, that's a direction I personally don't want to go towards. I've had a couple encounters where my opponent does a leaping attack to flick to the back of my shoulder, while I crouched low and extended upwards into his belly. In real life he would have scratched my shoulder while I would have impaled him---I guess that's the deal with sport arts though, the lack of serious risks makes you try things you wouldn't do if the stakes were higher. Being on the receiving end of flicks doesn't bother me though---I sort of look at it like a kungfu fighter facing a flexible weapon---you should be able to defend against anything . Also, I have more respect for some of the seasoned fencers at my club that are very sound in the fundamentals, and just occassionally throw in a flick as another option.

I did quite a bit of semi-contact point fighting in Karate many moons ago when I was in high school, and I would say fencing has some major advantages over that, though. With Karate point fighting, you had to alter your speed, timing, distance or power so that you wouldn't really punch the guy in the face as hard as you could. With fencing though, at it's purest, you don't have to alter anything. You can lunge with the exact speed, power, timing and force that you would really use in combat--but because the blade is blunt and flexible, and there's protective equipment, the blade just arcs up instead of going into the body. Of course, you don't HAVE to do that to score points if you're just interested in winning bouts, but if, like me, you're more interested in the martial side, I think fencing has some awesome potential for developing fairly realistic skill.

If you want to deflate ideas of real life duels, though, definitely check out that book The Secret History of the Sword. The author has competed in several Menschuren----modern German college fraternity swordfights with sharp basket hilt sabers. Everybody is padded up and wears goggles, and there's a doctor present, but the head is largely unprotected and there are some major cuts and blood and permanent scars. The author also revisits a lot of historical duels. He estimates that the fear, nerves, adrenalin and tension can wipe away 50-80% of any skills one may have! There are some pictures of Aldo Nadi (Olympic champion) in a real duel, and his form is terrible!

Oh, and Ford, one book I would totally recommend above all others that I have as far as a practical guide is The Big Book of Fencing---definitely worth it:

http://www.fencing101.com/books/bookorder.php

[joedoe]

From what I understand, it is now illegal to contact the floor with anything other than the feet so this move is considered illegal.

[TigerJaw]

Passata di Soto, that's the fella. I used to get quite few points off that. I used to drop so low that my fight knee was the highest thing off the floor with my right foot and left hand taking all my weight. You have to time it right so that your opponant walks onto your sword or he'll just get you in the back.

I did it so well that most presidents would give me the point out of shear nostalgia for a more civilised age.

[GeneChing]

That was one of my favorite moves, not tactically sound for epee (I was an epeeist) but I could get mileage out of it occassionally. Used to drive my old coach batty. But then, he wouldn't have been so batty about it had my competative record been better.

For fencing resources, I have to plug my old company, American Fencer's Supply - I worked there in the late 80's-early 90's, in their Armoury division.