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Thread: IronFist needs a new weight lifting program

  1. #1
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    IronFist needs a new weight lifting program

    I need a weight lifting program that incorporates the following:

    Strength: Duh.
    Size: I've lost like 12 lbs.
    Explosiveness: Why not?
    Endurance: To much 5 rep crap (even 10 sets of 5 reps with only 1 minute rest) has completely killed my muscular endurance. By muscular endurance, I mean lifting 5 reps was fine, but I couldn't do 6 or 7, even at very low weights.

    So I'm asking like a newbie because everytime I lift like a normal bodybuilder I get bigger but no stronger. And I can get strong with 5 rep stuff but then endurance goes out the window. I don't want to max all of them because I know that's not possible, but I'd like a decent combination.

    I guess I want something westside style, but when I look at their programs I don't understand them.

    So, if I was going to combine sets of 8 reps with explosive stuff and then lower rep strength stuff, what is the best way to do that? Should I have one day of each per week (that's similiar to what westside does, right?)? Or should I do like 8 rep sets for a while and then switch to lower rep higher weight stuff? How long should I do each one for?

    I've also tried doing just 5 sets of 8 reps with the same weight each time with 1 min rest, but I'm not sure if there's a point to doing that because if it's hard to complete like the 3rd or 4th set, I know I won't get all 8 reps on the last set so then I can't finish the sets and I don't want to increase the weight any for the next day.

    ^That was a long sentence.

    Alright. Advice please.

    IronFist
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
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  2. #2
    ::cough:: ::cough:: westside barbell ::cough::

  3. #3
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    Here is my advice:

    http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/ar...2&articleid=80

    http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/ar...2&articleid=81


    That's what I want to try over the winter when I get back inside a gym.

    For reference, I'm going to find out my 1RM in the three power lifts soon, with a friend.

  4. #4
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    Ford said:
    ::cough:: ::cough:: westside barbell ::cough::

    But I said:
    I guess I want something westside style, but when I look at their programs I don't understand them.

    That was my way of asking for some help on where to find them or the general concept of their programs.

    And then fa_jing said:
    Here is my advice:
    http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/a...e2&articleid=80
    http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/a...e2&articleid=81


    But those are mostly low rep things, which I'm trying to avoid now. However, the intro set from the second one (sets of 9 and 7) might be something I would consider.

    But as for Smolov, I hear a) you get way overtrained, and b) all his lifters are on drugs, which are supposedly a necessary component to his cycles working properly.

    IronFist
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  5. #5
    [tangent]
    I've been working on a flow chart type of thing to try to make a good periodized program.

    I list my goals and try to see how they stack up in accordance with methods from a few articles that I've read with good info. Stuff from T-Mag, Dr. Squat, EliteFTS, Dragon Door, etc.

    So I've got a few core lifts I'm interested in, and a few useful assistance exercises. I want to keep it as simple as possible.

    Of course there is more than one answer about how to cycle things like speed, intensity, and volume.

    But I make a few notes every day. Right now PtP is still working for me but eventually I will want something less streamlined.

    You should try something like that. I learned a lot just by writing stuff down that I already knew about, if that makes sense.
    [/tangent]

    Also, on EliteFTS there is an article for a nine week program for newbies. Maybe it will help.

  6. #6
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    Could you give me a link to that article? The only thing I see on their site is the store. But, this computer that I'm currently on has a ton of security things going on and in the past have prevented pages from loading properly so I think I might be missing something.

    IronFist
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  7. #7
    http://www.elitefts.com/documents/9w...ng-program.htm

    and if you need to refresh your memory on the background stuff:

    http://www.t-mag.com/html/body_133per.html

  8. #8
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    I think I've seen that article before.

    Here are some things I don't understand:

    Day 1 (max effort squat day)
    Good Mornings: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max.
    Glute Ham Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps. Stress the eccentric, try to get a four count on they way down.
    Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
    Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps
    Straight Leg Raises: 5 sets of 15 reps


    How much weight do I use for any of the things that don't list weights? It would make sense if it was a bodyweight exercise, but "Incline Barbell Tricep Extensions: 5 sets 6 reps" is definately a weight exercise.

    What is a glute ham raise? Straight Leg Raise?
    You're supposed to 1RM on Good Mornings? Is that safe?

    Why are there no quad exercises on "Max Effort Squat Day"

    What is a board press? One Arm Press?

    One Leg Squats: 4 sets of 10 with each leg

    Do they mean pistols? 4 sets of 10, yeah right!

    Bent Over Dumbbell Side Raises: 3 sets of 10 rep

    Is that a medial delt exercise?

    What are box squats?

    Wtf is a "seated dumbell clean?"

    I know what seated means, I know what a dumbell is, and I know what a clean is, but I can't imagine combining them.

    What is a JM press?

    What is a "Partial Deadlift?"

    face Pulls: 5 sets 15 reps

    Wtf is that?

    How do "Low box squats" differ from "box squats?"

    I must have completely missed something because that program doesn't make any sense to me.

    Edit - also there's no bicep work on there, except for the bit the do on dumbell rows.

    Help please.

    IronFist
    Last edited by IronFist; 08-15-2003 at 06:59 PM.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  9. #9
    Hey Iron,

    Luckily I had the ability to have Dave Tate explain these to me rather thoroughly. I'll give you a brief run down and feel free to ask me any questions after that.

    A) Weight Lifting

    Westside Barbell splits their lifting days into four days. Two days are for max effort work (one each for upper and lower body) and two days for speed work (one each for upper and lower body). The cycle they recommend, but you can switch to fit your needs is:

    Monday: Max Effort Legs

    Wednesday: Max Effort Bench

    Friday: Dynamic (speed) Legs

    Sunday: Dynamic Bench

    What a Max effort Day consists of is:

    *Main Exercise: this exercise is the exercise with the most carry over to maximal strength in the squat, dl, or bench. The rep range for any Max Effort (ME) exercise is between 1 & 5. You should do 2-3 light warm-up sets followed by 5 or so work sets building up to your 1-5RM. Only rest 1-2 minutes between sets. They generally split lower body like this:

    70% of ME Legs days are done with a goodmorning variation (regular goodmorning, wide/narrow stance goodmorning, arched-back goodmorning, goodmorning squat... etc)

    20% of ME Legs days are Box Squats

    10% of ME Legs days are deadlifts variations like regular DL, sumo, snatch pulls, clean pulls, etc

    For upperbody there is numerous exercises they do: board press, floor press, close-grip incline press, pin press, incline pin press, and they'll even do dips occasionally.

    *Supplemental Exercise: This exercise is meant to cause strength/hypertrophy gains in the muscles that are used in the "main exercise" Generally hamstrings for leg days and triceps & back in bench days. The rep range is anywhere between 8-15 and the rest is only 1 minute between sets for every exercise done after the main max-effort exercise.

    Lowerbody common supplemental exercises:
    4x15 Romanian DL
    8x8-12 Pull-throughs
    8x8-12 glue-ham raises
    6x8-12 DB snatches
    6x8-12 reverse hypers

    Upperbody supplemetal exercises for triceps:
    6x2-5 pin press (since it is similar to ME exercise only do on dynamic day)
    60 reps total skull crushers (no more than 10 reps/set)
    60 reps total DB extensions (regular and elbows out)
    60 reps total dips (same as above)

    Upperbody Supplemental exercises for back:
    6xfail pull-ups
    6x8-12 seated cable rows (use grip most similar bench)
    6x8-12 Barbell Rows

    *Accessory Exercises: These are exercises that reinforce the previous exercises done or exercises that work other muscle groups that can be inportant for the lift. Work in the 8-12 rep range and only rest 1 min between sets:

    Typical Lowerbody acessory exercises:
    5-8x8-12 Pull-down Abs (very good exercise for abs. should do at least one or two abs exercises every leg day)
    4xfail Foot-to-bar hanging leg raises
    4xfail Dragonflags
    4xfail ab wheel
    4x8-12 flat bench (romain chair) hyperextensions or reverse hypers

    Typical Upperbody accessory exercises:
    3x8-12 face pulls (rear delts. they usally do this every work)
    3-4x8-12 exernal rotations (every workout or every other)
    3-4x8-12 shoulder press or upright row (every or every other)

    ::catches breath::

    Now onto the Dynamic Upper and Lowerbody Workouts. These workouts are structures the EXACT same way the Max Effort days were except instead of doing a lifting for a 1-5RM in your main exercise you:

    Lowerbody-
    Box Squat 8-12 x 2 * done explosively as possible; rest max of 30 seconds between sets and only use 45-60% your 1RM (a minimum of 135 lbs)

    Upperbody-
    Bench Press 8-12 x 3 * done explosively as possible; rest max of 30 seconds and only use 45-60% 1RM (minimum of 135 lbs) Also alternate grip every set. Alternate between close-grip bench, moderate grip (slightly further out than close grip), and wide grip (pinkies on power rings)
    Bench Press

    After this you go onto your supplemental and accessory work. It is quite common to do two hamstring supplemental exercises after a dynamic lowerbody day.

    B) GPP work

    Westside guys like to do sled dragging on off days for recovery and GPP building. They like the sled because there is no eccentric action, so basically the muscle is just pumped with blood for recovery. Light calesthenic work is also done. Just don't do anything that you couldn't easily rip off sets of 25 with.

    That's about it. Let me know if you have any questions.
    Last edited by Ford Prefect; 08-18-2003 at 06:30 AM.

  10. #10
    Gotta run for the rest of the weekend. I'll answer the questions in your above post on monday.

  11. #11
    Ford seems to be a real font of info in this regard, so I do hope he continues expounding, but in the meantime, this series of articles helped me to understand the westside approach a lot better:

    http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/264eight.jsp
    http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/265eight.jsp
    http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/266eight.jsp
    http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/267eight.jsp
    "hey pal, you wanna do the dance of destruction with the belle of the ball, just say the word." -apoweyn

  12. #12
    "What is a glute ham raise? Straight Leg Raise?"

    Glute-ham raise is like a reverse leg curl. Instead of curling you shins to your butt to work your hamstrings, you are laying down and curl your body up. You need a special bench to them westside style, but you can do a variation by padding your knees and having something weighting the back of shins.

    Straight leg raise is just lying flat on bench with your legs hanging off of it. Keep them straight and raise them perpendicular with your body. To increase difficulty you can use ankle straps and chain weight to them.

    "You're supposed to 1RM on Good Mornings? Is that safe?"

    It's safe, but's it recommended to work your way slowly to working your 1RM on them over a month or two. What I did was 5RM's for one month, and 3RM's for the next. Then I did 1RM.

    "Why are there no quad exercises on "Max Effort Squat Day""

    Westside believes there is a huge strength deficit between most peoples hamstrings and quads. After all, if your posterior chain was as strong as your quads, you should be able to squat the same weight you can leg press. Also when squatting correctly powerlifting style, the squat is prodominantly a hamstring and glute exercise. They work the quads with the sled on off days, but they will rarely do anything with weights for them. They produce huge squatters, so I think they may be onto something.

    "What is a board press? One Arm Press?"

    Board Press is done with 3-5 2x4's nailed together. You put them on your chest and only bring the bar down to the boards when benching. Many westside ME bench exercises don't work the lower ROM of the bench. They believe that speed with explode the bar off your chest and strength works the rest of the way up.

    One-arm Press could be a few things I know they do. They do dumbbell shoulder presses and bench presses by alternating left/right throughout the set. It could also be a side press a la Pavel.

    "Do they mean pistols? 4 sets of 10, yeah right"

    Yup. They mean pistols. Obviously this is more advanced, but you'd be surprised how much the added strength from the program increases your ability to do these. I never really did many of them, but a month or two into training I was ripping them off easily.


    "Is that a medial delt exercise?"

    Don't remember the delt head names off-hand. Rear delt? Yes.

    "What are box squats?"

    Box Squats are can be done on a bench or those aerobic steps. You put it in between your legs so it's perpendicular with your body. Sit BACK (not down) onto the bench in a controlled manner, and then back up. Not only does is help teach correct squat form but it nails your hamstrings and glutes too. There are descriptions of them at elite fitness's site in the article "How to Squat 900 lbs"

    "Wtf is a "seated dumbell clean?" "

    Sit down with the DB's/arms hanging at your sides and perform a clean type motion to bring them to your shoulders like you would if you were trying to do deated dumbbell shoulder press.

    "What is a JM press?"

    Don't sweat it. Advanced ME bench exercise. No need to do it.

    "What is a "Partial Deadlift?" "

    Basically a deadlift off block or onto pins. In a power rack set the pins a little of your knees and deadlift off the ground to the pins to work the beginning of the motion or off the pins to lockout to work the end of it.

    "Wtf is that?" (face pull)

    Go to where you'd do tricep push-downs and attach a tricep rope or a tricep strap (like a rope but has handles). Pull the rope towards your face like a row. Imagine rowing it so the middle of the rope hits your forehead.

    "How do "Low box squats" differ from "box squats?""

    Box squat it done so your thighs are parellel with the ground. Low box squats go beyond that.

    "Edit - also there's no bicep work on there, except for the bit the do on dumbell rows"

    You don't need bicep isolation work to bench big which is what they are trying to accomplish.

  13. #13
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    Body for Life

    I use this method. Trust me it works. It uses the pyramid system and will fix your muscular endurance.

    The progs sets are like this (The percentage is what I do in terms of weight; the system uses a intensity rating: ie. set 1 is rating 5, and set 6 is rating 10; ratings = difficulty performing the set not weight).

    One Exercise: (ex. Bench)
    Set 1: 12 reps about 50% [5] 1RM (1 rep max)
    Set 2: 10 reps about 60% [6]
    Set 3: 8 reps about 70% [7]
    Set 4: 6 reps about 80% [8]
    Set 5: 12 reps about 60% [9]

    Done IMMEDIATELY after last set (NO REST). Same muscle, different exercise and target: (ex. Butterflies or Incline Bench)
    Set 6: 12 " " 60% [10]

    Also they prefer dumbbells to barbells.
    Read on the site the rotations and dieting.
    Last edited by Universal Stance; 08-18-2003 at 09:10 AM.
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  14. #14
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    this is what I sometimes do… I'm gonna be brief tho…

    pick one of the big 3…. Do a max strength WO… ie. 5x5 squats… follow that up with a hi-rep WO… ie. A KB WO… or a BWE WO… same with the Bench and OH presses… simple as that…
    "pain is not my enemy; it is my call to greatness. " - Henry Rollins


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  15. #15
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    Yeah, I like to do a pure strength scheme, then follow up later after some rest with endurance work. The combo seems to work nice. Like what Suntzu said.

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