A Mantis question about Fittness programs

[PAMantis]

I hope that this time I can get some responses . . . so I will ask my question as well as I can so as to not have this post disappear again. Some of you may have seen this in the KHT forum, but I would like Mantis practicioners to comment if they have any knowledge on this. I have recently started a cardio-weight training program called Body for Life. It includes diet, but that is not relevant. What I would like to know is whether any other Mantis practicioners have tried this and whether or not it hindered thier training, or enhanced their power/endurance.

I train with weights three days a week, and train cardio three days a week. The training is more of a bodybuilding method, and am wondering if this will keep me from performing forms well, or training the wrong muscles to do the wrong thing. My strength and endurance are improved about 5% in just the last week, so it is effective, but will it harm my Mantis growht?

I hope the question is presented well enough. If I've beaten a dead horse I'm sorry, I just don't want this thread to disappear again, only to have me be told that this has nothing to do with Mantis and that it does not belong here.

BTL I know that you do your best, and that your job is not easy, but I explained in my message to you what I was asking here and you still say that it has nothing to do with Mantis and does not belong here. Read my message again. When asking two different audiences the same question the meaning changes. It is not the question that is important it is the meaning to the audience. Had I been able to explain my question a bit more our time would not have been wasted. I take a bit of offense that you totally disregard what I had to say and insisted that this was not related to Mantis even after I explained myself to you.

PAMantis

[mantis108]

Hi PAMantis,

Your question is valid and that it comes up from time to time. Here are my thoughts concerning the subject:

1) Weight training in body building is Isokinetics designed to localize the muscle group so that entrophy of the targeted group is ensured; hence, a growth in mass that results in increase of strength and size is obvious to the beholders. It is ideal to build muscle and sculp the body. It contributes to martial arts training when used in moderation. Because of the design (localizing), this also tends to over develop the fast twitch muscles fibers that tend to burn out quickly and recover much slower. If you are a striker and intend to finish the fight within seconds, this is not a problem per se. But you will be in trouble if the fight prolongs. That you have to ask yourself is it worth the risk?

You can keep your routine but make sure you know exactly which group(s) of muscles are you building and do aerobic, flexibility, and coordination(forms are excellent) . You can see that boxers have fast hand despite of the big muscle because of the aerobics (shadow boxing) that they do. Now body builder will tell you that it's WRONG but are you body building or are you doing MA? You've got to decide for yourself.

Traditional Kung Fu has strength training (body weight and stone locks) that is not localized; therefore, KF guy don't necessarily look big but their strengths are impressive. In TJPM lineages there are programs designed with focus on the shoulder, upper arms, lats regions because these are most important. Having said that the exercises in these programs all have the core strength in mind as well. A traditional school should be able to satisfy this aspect of training. The best thing is that the product of such training is immediate functional strength for Kung Fu. This BTW is great for grappling oriented styles that include throws, takedown, Chin Na, etc...

2) Footwork and/or body method drills are the most efficient and functional cardio that is availble in Mantis training. So I would encourage you to do those instead. But if they are not availble well you will have to make do with what you've got.

3) Finally, if you feel what you are doing is helping give it a go by all means. Just make sure that you have a well balanced workout all the time. Keep it as function and practical toward your goal of Praying Mantis stylist and not a body builder (unless that really is your goal).

Hope this help

Regards

Mantis108

[PAMantis]

Mantis108,

Thank you for your response. The goal to this program is to build lean muscle mass, not bulky bodybuilding muscles, but the training is based on bodybuilding methods. I am also continuing my MA training as well, forms, footwork, and such. How would I perform footwork drills as a cardio exercise? Right now I am running on a treadmill doing HIIT aerobic training. As far as the muscle groups, I'm training the pecs, the biceps, triceps, shoulders (shoulders and the muscle on top of my shoulders both have blown up in only 2 weeks), the upper back, lats, calves, quads, hamstrings, and abs. I train the upper body one day, then do cardio, then do lower body, then cardio. I train like that six days per week and take off one day always alternating days and exercises. As a result I am getting a much stronger grip, and I am doing about 50 reps for each muscle group. Is that enough to provide adequite endurance coupled with regular form work and MA training? My goal is to be a strong 7* practicioner, with functional strength. Well that and loose this beer gut.

PAMantis

[ninjaboy]

why don't you just do more kung fu with heavier weapons and lower stances? and faster, for longer. then you get the best of both worlds. gravity is my favourite workout partner.

neil

[BeiTangLang]

Alternating training between cardio & weights is very wise IMHO.
HIIT training is a good thing also, very good results in short periods of time. Remember that the HIIT concept works with weights as well as cardio....

As it pertains to NPM,...I would limit myself to slower weight gains & more cardio at least at first to get the body used to itself.

[PAMantis]

Ninjaboy,

I have not begun to train with weapons yet. I have only just begun my 7* training. As far as the lower stances I try to keep my stances as low as possible while practicing my forms. I have found that this helps with flexibility also.

BTL,

The weight training is HIIT I believe also. I have not gotten really fast gains from the weight training as far as I can tell except in my shoulders and calves, which were always fast to grow and fast to shrink in my experience. I have how ever noticed a fairly quick reduction in my massive bmi in the form of weight coming off in a steady 3 pounds per week and a shrinking in my beer gut. What do you mean by let my body get used to itself? I'm not sure I understand that.


Andrew

[BeiTangLang]

The body getting used to itself is oddly simple. As weight is lost/muscle mass gained etc. specialy if its done rapidly, slight clumbsiness, stiffness & lack of flexibility can be a side-effects.
The muscles & central nervous system will re-adjust a little at a time because the body does not know if the loss is a temporary or long term thing (this happens to some, but not all people).
My balance is messing with me at the moment because the stronger muscles are reacting at the same force-rate as they were when they were weaker,...hence the problem(over-correction & balance loss). Anyway, some folks don't have this problem but I do (along with an amazing lactic acid production rate).
Hope that explained it a bit better.
Best Wishes,
BTL

[PAMantis]

Well I think I had the same thing happening to me recently due to a lack of muscleature more than anything. My legs and arms/shoulders/chest used to be extremely strong (I used to wrestle and play soccer), and recently I have been very clumsy while trying to be athletic. I think that I may actually be getting more graceful, and faster since I have begun working out. Is that a normal phenomenon?

PAMantis

[BeiTangLang]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PAMantis
[B]Well I think I had the same thing happening to me recently due to a lack of muscleature more than anything. My legs and arms/shoulders/chest used to be extremely strong (I used to wrestle and play soccer), and recently I have been very clumsy while trying to be athletic.

**Yup,..what I'm going through at the moment**



I think that I may actually be getting more graceful, and faster since I have begun working out. Is that a normal phenomenon?

**Well,..at the risk of sounding sarcastic, Ain't that what we're working out for?? :-)
You do get the balance back after "normalization" & if your reality becomes a contant change, the body will adapt to that as well.



Best Wishes,..

[PAMantis]

That's why we're working out? Dam n I wish I had known that. I thought I was just supposed to get stronger and bigger?

[-N-]

Originally posted by PAMantis
I train with weights three days a week, and train cardio three days a week. The training is more of a bodybuilding method, and am wondering if this will keep me from performing forms well, or training the wrong muscles to do the wrong thing. My strength and endurance are improved about 5% in just the last week, so it is effective, but will it harm my Mantis growht?

PAMantis,

That's pretty much the workout that I do. It can be done, but it *is* possible for that kind of workout to cause problems for your mantis training.

I do mantis on Saturday and Sunday, sparring with a karate club on Mondays, Tuesday is upper body weights, Wednesday is running and biking, Thursday is upper body weights again, Friday is running and lower body weights. I do stretching throughout the week. Actually, I should probably add another running day, but I went down to just 2 due to injuries a while back.

The big problem with weights is that if you have difficulties in being relaxed in doing your mantis, the weights will probably make you worse. Also, in doing weights, you isolate muscles vs. trying to coordinate your muscles as in mantis. Another problem is that with weights, you apply constant tension slowly over the range of motion. In mantis, you need to relax-explode-relax instead.

Among the people that I've worked with, those that lifted weights needed a *lot* more personalized help in relaxing, reducing rigidity, and coordinating the motions of their combination attacks. If you and your teacher are willing and able to put in a lot of extra effort to overcome these problems, the weights can be ok. In general, I tell people that they are strong enough, and I prefer them initially to focus on relaxing and coordinating whole body power before they work on increasing strength with weights.

When I started sparring at the karate club, the blackbelts commented on my kicking power, and asked if I used a heavy bag or some kind of special training method. I told them I spent a few years kicking the air slowly and coordinating motions in a relaxed way.

As far as running, it can help your endurance for sparring, but sparring is not fighting. If you really have to use your mantis, endurance is probably not a concern, since you should finish off your attacker in a few motions, and/or get away, or else you're dead. When I was doing a 9 mile long run, I had no problem outlasting one partner after another after another in light/moderate contact sparring. But again, sparring is basically a game or practice and is intentionally an extended exchange.

For 3 days of running, you can do 1 long run, 1 tempo run, and 1 interval day. Finish off your long runs and tempo runs with strides/sprints. After 2-3 months, you can switch your interval run for a hill day for a while to develop more leg power. The big problem with running is that it can make your leg muscles tight, and you'll need to do a lot of extra stretching. The benefit is that you can build your endurance so that you can train your mantis longer and harder.

One thing that is directly beneficial to your mantis is plyometric training. Plyometrics develops explosive power which is good for your footwork and striking. You can do generic plyometric training, as well as exercises customized to your mantis motions.

So anyway, the exercise program you described can work. It'll be great for your health. It won't necessarily directly benefit your mantis skills. And it can slow your progress if you and your teacher don't put in extra effort to compensate for the problems that can result. Also, you have to be careful not to overtrain or get injured, because with so many constant activities, it's easy for an injury in one activity to put you out of commission for another.

For beginning to intermediate students, I tell them to prioritize their goals as:

- relaxed motions
- coordination
- accuracy
- endurance
- strength

If you are relaxed and coordinated with correct motions, then any added strength from weight lifting is a bonus. But power wont matter if you can't deliver it. So this would be the long term approach. If you want quick and dirty, you could go for strength first and live with lesser technical proficiency in your mantis. This approach will save your butt in the street Depends on what you want to get out of your training.

N.

[mantis108]

Hi PAMantis,

You are welcome. I agreed with N about the training. I like his suggestions on the running and plyometrics. I used to run cross country races. But I am not much of a running fan. I think road work is better done on the road and not on the machine. Another thing about aerobic machine is that people tend to think heart rate and forget all about correct breathing method. I have seen this with my students who frequent the gyms. They still ran out of breath or get tired faster during drills and sparring. The problem isn't that they don't train cardio. It is rather poor breathing method and tension that literally burn them out. That's my take on the roadwork. Now our cardio involves jumping on used tires (get a larger and firmer one if you can). That builds your calves pretty good beside the cardio.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Mantis9]

PA,

In Western Boxing recent past, weight training was regarded as taboo b/c of all the listed reason by the other members. However, current fighters like Roy Jones, Evander Holyfield, DLH, and Shane Moseley have weight training included in their training regimens. Usually, their training is broken up between technical and conditioning. The conditioning aspect of training is always sports specific including roadwork, footwork, bag training, sparring, and weights.

Unlike a bodybuilding, sport specific weight regimen use exercises that approximate resistence version the boxer would use commonly in the ring. Also, exercises usually employ groups of muscles rather than isolating a particular one like a bodybuilder might.

So, I guess my advice is to look for PM movements or muscle groups commonly employed during a multitude of techiques, then find resistence exercise the approximate or complement those techniques.

However, I think the big secret to weight and conditioning training for Kung Fu is to look at as a piece of a fundamental whole. Reviewing techiques, qualities, and principles in different conditioning environments is good, but lifting weight just to get strong is a big no-no. That will make you stiff and awkward.

Also, putting on muscle will slow you down if you don't allow your body to adjust to itself. So weight train is cyclical fashion, alternating between mass gain and toning.

Mantis9