Has the BJJ phenomenon peaked??

[old jong]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I agree with that. But where are you getting those basics?

Go to the sources available!...I train with a Judoka who was already a black belt when Royce was still in diapers!... This is how (or where) I get it.
My instructor is a real ne-waza maniac and I concentrate only on that aspect of Judo with him. I absolutely don't care about belts for myself.All I want is the know how.

[SevenStar]

Which is exaclty the way it should be done!

[diego]

Originally posted by LEGEND
Diego...we all think ROYCE was smoking crack when he released that BOOK! That book is HORRIBLE...and yes...it's like 1 step 2 step kata drills. I suggest getting the MASTERING JUJITSU by Royce's cousin...RENZO GRACIE...by far...much better than the crap Royce published.

Okay then...if you want to be harsh about it I will

Question for yall...what did BJJ add to the ground game that old school JJ and wrestling arts didn't have...did BJJ invent new tech's etc?
peace

[diego]

to add to my first question based on what 7* said about the game evolved as of recent...why through all of man's years at war did he not have the ground evolution upto par to where it is today?...did our ancestors find that to much detail in the ground game is unneccassary orwhat?...like in war you're best off trying to stay on your feet then worrying about getting back on them? what's the deal yall grapple-scholar/fighters?.

I have heard in some chinese kungfu circles they thought it was disgracefull to fight on the ground like you a dog or whatever, anyone heard this? fill me in

[rogue]

I absolutely don't care about belts for myself.All I want is the know how.

Got spanked during belt testing yet again OJ?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by diego
Question for yall...what did BJJ add to the ground game that old school JJ and wrestling arts didn't have...did BJJ invent new tech's etc?
peace

I am also interested in the answer.

AFAIK, BJJ only specialised on newaza but didn't add anything to the art.

Combine that with UFC that showcased and marketed what a fighter specialising in one fighting aspect can do over guys that doesn't specialise in it.

Granted prior to UFC and similar events there was little chance for a wrestler to fight a MT guy and similar.

[edit]

IMO what gave the gracies the edge to win early UFC compes was not so much GJJ/BJJ, but that they took their game "Vale Tudo" to a new audience and fighters that lacked their experience in it.

Vale Tudo started in Brazil around the 1920's meaning that the Gracies fought in that type of competidion for decades and their games was totally geared towards it.
[/edit]

Cheers.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by diego
to add to my first question based on what 7* said about the game evolved as of recent...why through all of man's years at war did he not have the ground evolution upto par to where it is today?...did our ancestors find that to much detail in the ground game is unneccassary orwhat?...like in war you're best off trying to stay on your feet then worrying about getting back on them? what's the deal yall grapple-scholar/fighters?.

I have heard in some chinese kungfu circles they thought it was disgracefull to fight on the ground like you a dog or whatever, anyone heard this? fill me in

This may have been the case, but I doubt it given that there are whole styles devoted to fighting from the ground (though not groundfighting as it is know today) like dog style. Monkey style also spends some time on the ground, as do some lohan techniques (if only briefly and usually only long enough to clear the area and get back on your feet).

I suspect that a lot of traditional systems had some good reasons to avoid 'ground wrestling', but those reasons may not be valid today. Or I could just be talking out of my arse

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by joedoe
I suspect that a lot of traditional systems had some good reasons to avoid 'ground wrestling', but those reasons may not be valid today. Or I could just be talking out of my arse

Like the prevelance of horses for transportation? Goodness knows I wouldn't want to go to the ground if it meant landing in the remainants of a stallion's lunch.

[Serpent]

I think these are the points most relevant to my thinking here:

I don't think anyone has a problem with acknowledging that grappling arts have more expertise in grappling than striking arts; the issue is only debated when grapplers claim to have cornered the market on using and/or inventing ground and submission techniques.

There are certain things that each arts do well. We can learn from that, or we can engage in belief preservation and walk away no better off than before. I mean, heck, I don't lecture people on how to punch!

My whole thing is to always question. I'm not gonna take anyone's word on it that what they are teaching me is good if it's not something they do.

[diego]

Thanks LC, I'm going to look into the genesis of Vale Tudo.

I'm very curios to find out more about all of our ancestors thinking relating to the fight-game so further input from the tma's and mma's is much appreciatted.

Many kungfu schools have triad links so alot of their jewels i imagine relates to things like multiple opponnent fighting theorys etc...why don't these types of schools speak on groundfighting as much as say BJJ schools....what do the BJJ schools have to say about fighting triad style...two crews with hatchets going at it at a crosswalk before the light turns green......read that was basically the first american newsprint of a triad war...in 1900 two gangs met up and fought while peeps on they balconys placed bets and sh-it...things like that

pressed for time sorry about the erradic typing yall
peace

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by diego
to add to my first question based on what 7* said about the game evolved as of recent...why through all of man's years at war did he not have the ground evolution upto par to where it is today?...did our ancestors find that to much detail in the ground game is unneccassary orwhat?...like in war you're best off trying to stay on your feet then worrying about getting back on them? what's the deal yall grapple-scholar/fighters?.

If you are in the middle of a war, you don't want to be on the ground. Quite logically, that shouldn't have been a focus of theirs. Today, there is plenty of awesome competition in groundfighting. You have to evolve and constantly advance your game if you're gonna stay on top.

I have heard in some chinese kungfu circles they thought it was disgracefull to fight on the ground like you a dog or whatever, anyone heard this? fill me in

I've heard that about several cultures, not just the chinese

[LEGEND]

"Question for yall...what did BJJ add to the ground game that old school JJ and wrestling arts didn't have...did BJJ invent new tech's etc?"

Helio Gracie added his own flavor to JUDO. BJJ is basically an off shoot of JUDO. So the GROUND TECHNIQUEs are more refined etc...

"why through all of man's years at war did he not have the ground evolution upto par to where it is today?"

Hand to hand combat was not a factor in war. It was the development of weapons and stragedy. Weapons played a hugh factor in WARFARE. Streetfighting although mostly is hand to hand...it gets extremely deadly when weapons( bottles, chairs, knives, and guns ) are involved.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow

AFAIK, BJJ only specialised on newaza but didn't add anything to the art.

The rubber guard, the omoplata, the flying armbar, rolling knee bar...the list goes on. BJJ added alot to ne waza, and they did so because they did specialize in it.


Combine that with UFC that showcased and marketed what a fighter specialising in one fighting aspect can do over guys that doesn't specialise in it.

And theoretically, that means strikers could have won in the early days too. And some did - mo smith and keith hackney come to mind.

IMO what gave the gracies the edge to win early UFC compes was not so much GJJ/BJJ, but that they took their game "Vale Tudo" to a new audience and fighters that lacked their experience in it.

I don't think so, because it wasn't just the gracies who won - it was grapplers in general. Also, The gracies aren't known as anything other than BJJ guys. Matter of factly, if you ask royce (and I have asked him) he'll tell you that he doesn't do mma - he only does bjj.

Vale Tudo started in Brazil around the 1920's meaning that the Gracies fought in that type of competidion for decades and their games was totally geared towards it.

I dunno... I would think that if their game was totally geared towards it, they would be better at striking. royce's striking is sub par, and I'm sure several of the other gracies share that same affliction.

[Merryprankster]

Seven,

Gotta disagree with you here--there aren't any techniques in BJJ that aren't in Judo except for, perhaps, a couple of highly specific, unusual ones. The omo plata, for instance, isn't heavily practiced in Judo, but it's there--same with leg locks.

I would say that it's the entries and chaining that define BJJ vice Judo newaza. The understanding of the ground game by BJJers and little details noticed, collected and gathered really make a difference in execution.

But "new" techniques? Not so much, IMO--more "creative and different ways of getting there."

[Budokan]

Yes, like all fads (and yes, it was a fad, although that's not to denigrate its fighting style and techniques) BJJ has taken a downturn. Not surprising seeing as how it was red hot with hype for so many years -- it had to burn itself out sometime.

Next fad? We've already had one and it burned out with a white hot flame a lot quicker than BJJ. It was called tae bo.

But the next really big fad, like it or not, is gonna be Wushu. And boy, if you thought you heard a lot of screaming from traditonal MA about BJJ you ain't heard nothing yet until Wushu becomes a fad and captures the public imagination and airwaves.