Skeptical?

[yenhoi]

You are not wrong.

[yenhoi]

Its my expierence that even if I deem a method not-useful for myself, that I have gained great knowledge, or at least perspective - which is useful in envaluating pretty much everything else that I might come accross. To me, this means that most people should be at least open minded and critical enough to "give things a chance" before dismissing them entirely.

Just knowing that there are real, effective Iron Body methods out there is useful, even if you dont practice any sort of Iron Body method yourself.

[Former castleva]

"You are not wrong."

Great.

"Its my expierence that even if I deem a method not-useful for myself, that I have gained great knowledge, or at least perspective - which is useful in envaluating pretty much everything else that I might come accross. To me, this means that most people should be at least open minded and critical enough to "give things a chance" before dismissing them entirely.

Just knowing that there are real, effective Iron Body methods out there is useful, even if you dont practice any sort of Iron Body method yourself."

I see.Those are good thoughts.

[Vash]

I am open to most forms of healing, mainly since the beginning of the year.

I thought I knew it all The pain in my back was just a pulled muscle. No reason to see a chiropractor. Turns out I had a massive subluxation. Several pinched nerves. Heck, my kneck looked backwards on the xray. Don't even get me started on my tilted pelvis . . .

So yes, I am willing to look into TCM, or holistic health as a whole, without a whole lot of scientific backing. Just so long as it doesn't "spit in the face" of common sense.

Well, maybe a little spittle.

[Former castleva]

"So yes, I am willing to look into TCM, or holistic health as a whole, without a whole lot of scientific backing. Just so long as it doesn't "spit in the face" of common sense."

So,when does something start "spitting in the face" as far as common sense goes? (in your books)

[Vash]

I'd say something along the lines of those "coral calcium" ads, to start with.

After that, a claim which is based almost entirely upon nothing. I love chiropractics, for example. But, if one told me it worked for the singular reason that it freed up my chi pathways, then I'd be throwing another name to quacksearch.

My massage therapist does Reiki. Haven't had her perform this on me, yet, but she is one hell of a massues.

[Former castleva]

"I'd say something along the lines of those "coral calcium" ads, to start with. "

Ah,yes.I get it.That´s nutrition related quackery.Exaggerated or unfounded claims.

"After that, a claim which is based almost entirely upon nothing. I love chiropractics, for example. But, if one told me it worked for the singular reason that it freed up my chi pathways, then I'd be throwing another name to quacksearch."

Hmmm.I understand.You´ve already made clear that you accept some alternative/complementary methods,so I´m not going to go to that.I can´t help but comment that chiropractics also make claims that are seemingly unfounded.I also think that their methods can be dangerous,and they are found guilty of causing harm because of apparently pseudoscientific beliefs&acts (not a generalization).

"My massage therapist does Reiki. Haven't had her perform this on me, yet, but she is one hell of a massues."

OK.I hear that my massage therapist practices cupping.I have doubts about it´s validity,but as far as strange statements&/or promises about massage are not made,I´m fairly fine with it.

[Vash]

For the community as a whole, I'd say they kind of oversell the treatment. But, as in every profession, there's this guy that does it right and don't blow smoke up your aorta.

"Cures headaches, leg pains . . ."

Yeah. Did for me. I have always gotten shooting pain in my legs if I sat in a car for an hour or more. That was murder on those 6 hour bus rides to track meets. Also, my leg used to get a catch in it, so it felt like it should move in reverse. Left leg, inner thigh used to cramp up bad. Since I started treatment, this has all but disappeared. Used to get some bad-ass headaches. Cracks my neck occasionally, they go by-by. Course, they do that when I workout and when I drink Gatorade.

As for the other, more dubious claims, the chiropractor I work with hasn't really made any. So I can't really comment on those.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Science tends to discount that which it can't measure and quantify, and.. for its model of the universe, it is appropriate..

What science fails to accept is that there are other workable models, that prior to the formalization of the "scientific method" people simply adopted that which worked (pragmatism).. a simple example might be the use of the bark of the Yew tree to relieve pain.. now that science has measured and quantified the active agents in that bark, we have Aspirin.. the point is, that the absence of "proof" did not diminish the popular understanding that the "magic bark" relieved pain..

The only point i would assert is that it is lacking in theory to dismiss "claims of efficacy" due to unmeasureable conditions.. perhaps it is simply that we haven't yet developed the technology or understanding of modalities to make a definitive analysis..

Regarding the radioactive tracing of meridians/channels, that is a poorly thought-out experiment.. at the onset, it was known that the tracing agent would perform as described.. that there was no indication that an intangible energy path would transport tangible tracing agents through tangible substances.. the more appropriate search might be to focus on measuring devices that can filter various aspects of energy to isolate or indicate patterns that coincide with the expectations asserted through acupuncture, Tui Na, etc..

Be well..

[Former castleva]

"Regarding the radioactive tracing of meridians/channels, that is a poorly thought-out experiment.. at the onset, it was known that the tracing agent would perform as described.. that there was no indication that an intangible energy path would transport tangible tracing agents through tangible substances.. the more appropriate search might be to focus on measuring devices that can filter various aspects of energy to isolate or indicate patterns that coincide with the expectations asserted through acupuncture, Tui Na, etc..
"

TCB,we did not discuss that here.

So,what is your stance/did you vote?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

FC: I did vote.. I support Holistic medicine, yet.. i am also skeptical.. the long and short of it is that skeptics have long been stumbling blocks for advances in "potential" new modalities.. mostly it is their repressive concepts that "if it can't be measured it ain't so" attitude.. it is their attacks with alleged "unbiased" scientific findings that cause otherwise foreward thinking folks to question or abandon exploration of alternative health options..

As A. Einstein asserted and i concur, "imagination is more important than knowledge".. no one can quantify imagination nor measure it.. yet, it is the foundation of knowledge.. Surely, i am skeptical of claims of miracles, more surely though.. unless i perceive harm, i am open to a new experience or repeated old experiences that offer me hands-on chance to determine for myself the value of such experiences.. my own direct experiences afford me data that and value that no treatise can offer.. regardless of credentials, publications are second hand explanations of biased observations ( some more or less than others, but biased none-the-less)..

Yes, i scoff at the purely sterile existence of the puritanical Scientist.. they try to solve problems with the same thinking that caused the problem.. (stuck inside a box of their own creation).. i approve of and appreciate people that challenge me to defend my beliefs, however.. those with an agenda to save the world from itself and its beliefs with "hard scientific data", miss the whole point.. they fail to accept that science is limited to its ability to perceive.. beyond that, it's wide open..

Be well..

[yenhoi]

If we find a creature living in a small area we should not be surprized when we look around and find the surrounding environment provides the perfect conditions for the creature to live.

Just a thought.

[Former castleva]

"FC: I did vote.. I support Holistic medicine, yet.. i am also skeptical.. "

TCB,thank you.
That was all I asked for.It appears that you´re repeating your opinions about how science works,according to you,various times again&again.No offense meant.

"If we find a creature living in a small area we should not be surprized when we look around and find the surrounding environment provides the perfect conditions for the creature to live."

Do you want to discuss zoology or ecology?
What´s the point?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

FC.. Indeed, i am repeating my opinions.. as are you.. The opinions take different subjects but remain the same.. you insist that science "proves" or "disproves" the validity of opinions.. i insist that science is too limited in its procedure to account for intangibles.. and, therefore, where there is opinion that evades the tangible criteria, science should reserve judgment until it has the methodology to definitively quantify its assertions..

An example might be.. i insist that there is a cosmic life-force inherent in all things called Chi.. science can't quantify it, so dismisses it as invalid.. much like when popular scientific thought held that the Earth was the center of the universe, then upon better equipment and more cognitive reasoning that "truth" was modified to a better explanation..

I find more comfort in open-minded belief in possibility than the closed scientific system that relies on methodology that has inherent limitations.. We simply differ in our approach to life, yet neither belief-system invalidates the experience.. they only explain it differently..

[Former castleva]

"An example might be.. i insist that there is a cosmic life-force inherent in all things called Chi.. science can't quantify it, so dismisses it as invalid.. much like when popular scientific thought held that the Earth was the center of the universe, then upon better equipment and more cognitive reasoning that "truth" was modified to a better explanation..
"

So basically you´re saying that there really is a separate,existing energy unknown to physics?
It´s interesting that you should mention the earth in this context.A while ago I was watching a discussion on alternative medicine in which a proponent of- responded (to critics) by indicating that it used to be thought that the earth is flat...you get the idea.Well,I think that´s a bit of a funny statement to make as a defense,considering that the ideas/methods/- they were defending can pre-date even those obsolote explanations that they´re referring to.The earth gained shape,their ideas apparently did not.Indeed it is possible that I,for example,am dead wrong.Certain probabilities of possible outcomes can form,however.