Pole form

[CFT]

Wing Chun uses a pole that is 8-9 foot long. This is often cited as evidence of WC's heritage in the Red Junk opera troupe, e.g. that it was originally used for pushing the junks along or that it was part of the props used in the opera.

Leaving aside the historical basis, why does it remain significantly longer than the staffs/poles used in other systems? Does the length really make such a difference other than keeping your opponent at a longer distance?

Before reading up a little about the pole, I always assumed that it had a uniform cross-section, but then I found out that it was actually tapered so that the tip was narrower. I don't think that this would have been necessary if the pole was merely used originally to push the junks along/off.

I imagine that tapering the pole actually "encourages" flexing of the tip. Is this flexing behaviour exploited in the form?

The tapering tip reminds me of the whip, where the tapering is necessary to get the tip moving at supersonic speeds.

Last thought/question .... has anyone tried to perform the pole using a "conventional" (e.g. 6-7 foot) pole. How different is it, and does it completely destroy the dynamics of the form?

[TjD]

the only difference i've found playing with a shorter pole is that you give up some power for speed/mobility.

however, from what ive heard; traditionally the pole was more of a 1 shot kill kind of deal; so that extra speed/mobility isn't really needed.

[old jong]

I sometimes practice the pole form at home with a short aikido "jo". It is about 50 inches long.
I have to adjust the motions in order to keep good lines for the shorter distances.
It makes for a good medium distance defensive weapon.(You could grab a stick or a piece of two by four and use the kwaan principles if needed)

[teazer]

Originally posted by CFT
Before reading up a little about the pole, I always assumed that it had a uniform cross-section, but then I found out that it was actually tapered so that the tip was narrower. I don't think that this would have been necessary if the pole was merely used originally to push the junks along/off.

I imagine that tapering the pole actually "encourages" flexing of the tip. Is this flexing behaviour exploited in the form?

The tapering tip reminds me of the whip, where the tapering is necessary to get the tip moving at supersonic speeds.

The taper brings the pole's center of gravity closer to the hands, allowing for quicker movement & more control without reaching your hand out further. It gets the same effect of a narrower or shorter pole but without the loss of mass. I suppose a narrower tip makes for a more concentrated impact when thrusting, but that wouldn't require the taper all the way down.
Why do you think 'flexing of the tip' would be at all useful, other than as a side effect of good power generation?

[reneritchie]

Because its single ended (dan tao gwun), you can increase the range and use it like a (non-bladed) spear. This allows you to engage an opponent while keeping them far enough away that they have trouble engaging you.

With double ended (seung tao gwun), usage does not allow for increased length.

[old jong]

There are two motions that use the "butt" of the kwaan.One at the beginning when you strike downward while lifting the tip high and,one at the very end when you simply strike/pullback backward with it. But,it is nothing like "Robin Hood"!...
It is not easy to find a 8 or 9 feet long piece of wood on the street when you need it,so, I think it is a good idea to practice (sometimes) with some kind of more average piece of stick.The lines are good if you adapt just a little.

[reneritchie]

Old Jong, you can spin it over your head to. You can add line and go fishing. In actuality, we hit as much with the length as with the tip. Single-headed doesn't mean it doesn't have a body or an @$$, just not two heads

[CFT]

Originally posted by teazer

Why do you think 'flexing of the tip' would be at all useful, other than as a side effect of good power generation?

I thought that by varying the "ging"/power that you applied to the pole, you could make the position of the tip vary and so confuse your opponent.

[old jong]

You could even use it to jump over a fence or small river or, use it to chase squirrels from your garage roof!...
You're right,I forgotten about the use of the length!!!

[yuanfen]

Controlling a long pole makes working with shorter poles
and anything laying around- say a broom stick or shovel easier.
The reverse is less true.
The narrowing like a cue stick helps with development of one point focussing.

[anerlich]

While the "traditional" pole may be nine feet long, TWC theory has it as being applicable to weapons from four to thirteen feet in length.

I once took out a flourescent tube in my academy five minutes before a busy class started with some overzealous pole practice - powder and fine broken glass everywhere, embarassing but everyone saw the humour in it as well. Since then I have seen the value of working with shorter weapons.

Yes, length and weight do make a difference - if you can work with long and or heavy poles, the shorter/lighter ones become much easier. As Joy said, the reverse transference is much less applicable. I sometimes work with a five foot fifteen pound weight bar, but this is different again from using a longer piece of heavy wood. I haven't tried it with an Olympic bar

Musashi counselled us not to have a favorite weapon, so therefore concern over exact dimensions is IMHO counterproductive. Few people walk around with nine foot poles, and if something kicks off you're more likely to be able to find a broom, rake, piece of pipe, pool cue.

While these days most poles seem to be constructed of very solid hardwood, my instructor often discusses the value of a more flexible pole - to a degree it can get around a blocking weapon and still hit home, and incorporates a whipping, stinging action which can be difficult for an opponent to deal with - though OTOH it arguably requires more skill from the user as well.

[CFT]

Originally posted by anerlich
While these days most poles seem to be constructed of very solid hardwood, my instructor often discusses the value of a more flexible pole - to a degree it can get around a blocking weapon and still hit home, and incorporates a whipping, stinging action which can be difficult for an opponent to deal with - though OTOH it arguably requires more skill from the user as well.

So the pole form does not rely on flexibility of the pole for its effectiveness?

Back to the point of grabbing anything that would work in an emergency .... I think I would be right in assuming that pool cues, broom handles, etc. would not survive one smash against an opponent (you've seen the bar fights in the movies!), but would if used on point, i.e. jabbing.

Just how practical/possible would it be to pick up a pole-like object to defend yourself? I can see how someone trained in broadsword being able to pick up a baseball bat or small length of wood/pipe and defend themselves. Or two broken chair legs used as singlesticks (escrima).

Just how practical are the WC weapons forms? From what I've read on this forum and elsewhere, they feed back into the weaponless forms re: power generation and footwork, but I just can't see how anyone would realistically defend themselves in an emergency situation against another weapon ... except just really on their hands (which should be enough I guess ?).

[anerlich]

So the pole form does not rely on flexibility of the pole for its effectiveness?

You got it, ace.

Back to the point of grabbing anything that would work in an emergency .... I think I would be right in assuming that pool cues, broom handles, etc. would not survive one smash against an opponent (you've seen the bar fights in the movies!), but would if used on point, i.e. jabbing.

Movies are not a good reference - the chairs, bottles, etc. in the movies are props designed to fall apart. And in T2 remember that Arnie's character had a titanium alloy skull. That said, the point is generally regarded as the killing strike.

Just how practical/possible would it be to pick up a pole-like object to defend yourself?

If it's all that's available, it could be very practical. The effective use of spears, halberds, quarterstaffs and the like appears throughout history from very early on. As for the reference to escrima, remember FMA uses longer weapons too.

I just can't see how anyone would realistically defend themselves in an emergency situation against another weapon ... except just really on their hands (which should be enough I guess ?).

If empty hands were enough, cops wouldn't carry batons, guns, pepper spray or the like. Films like Braveheart and Gladiator would have just been guys duking it out.

A weapon in the hands of a trained user is a HUGE advantage - though legal considerations make it an option not to be taken lightly. You're right that winning is not guaranteed, and escape is a preferable strategy to combat (with or without weapons, but even more so with).

As for the effectiveness of the forms ... they'll be about as effective as the empty hand forms for fighting. i.e. they're not enough on their own, you need to do other training (drills, sparring, etc.) to be able to use them effectively.

[CFT]

Originally posted by anerlich
As for the effectiveness of the forms ... they'll be about as effective as the empty hand forms for fighting. i.e. they're not enough on their own, you need to do other training (drills, sparring, etc.) to be able to use them effectively.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments though I think you have may have mis-interpreted my meaning, or probably I was not clear enough.

I agree that weapons offer a great advantage in any encounter, and that there is nothing wrong with the WC weapons forms as long as you use them correctly and in the right situation.

What I was trying to say was: "how easy is it to find an appropriately shaped object to use as your weapon in an everyday situation?"

I think that the pole substitute is probably the easiest to find, whereas the knives are more difficult.

The escrima (single-sticks) reference was mentioned purely for the fact that you would probably be able to get hold of 2 arm-length pieces of wood fairly easily, e.g. wooden chair legs.

[anerlich]

Chee,

I think you're right - but knowing both types of weapons gives you more options. You're right about the shorter sticks as well, though you can adapt the knife form to impact weapons (like escrima sticks) as well as blades.

My Sifu teaches single and double baston, and uno baston dos manos, and I practice them regularly myself.