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Thread: All Shaolin Do threads merged here, please use this thread

  1. #1
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    The Case against Shaolin Doh-nt...Court now in session.

    1)DUBIOUS HISTORY

    Shaolin Do history (according to shaolincenter.com) claims that a monk with hypertrichosis named Su Kong Tai Djin (1849-1929) was raised in the Fukien Shaolin temple and learned all their sets.

    Then another student name Ie Chang Ming (1880-1976) trained there and learned all there was to learn and left the temple to teach in Singapore.

    Cross-examination:

    Where was this Fukien shaolin temple that these two "monks" trained at?
    Only recently has anything been found that even resembles a Southern Shaolin Temple. According to legend it was destroyed in the early Ching dynasty which began in 1644. The archeological evidence seems to support this. 1850 is not early Ching dynasty. Furthermore if the temple had existed around 50-100 years ago when the dog face monk and his student supposedly trained there don't you think that other people in the area would have known about the temple? And yet this temple was highly disputed to even exist until it was discovered in the last couple of years. The temple that exist there now was built in 1991.

    2) FORMS

    According to swshaolin.com

    "Since its creation, Shaolin has collected, refined and retained over 980 katas (forms), representing more than 50 different open hand systems and many different weapons. Contrary to the popular belief that Shaolin monks only practiced the "hard styles", every major form of internal kung fu was practiced in the Shaolin temples. This includes every major family of Tai Chi and Pa Kua, as well as Hsing Ie and the very rare Liu Hsing (meteor fist). Shaolin monks also possessed an awesome body of knowledge on esoteric Taoist and Buddhist Chi Kung (breath training) and Nei Kung (internal training) techniques."

    ***Are we to believe that Sin The knows 980 forms? My style Choy Lay Fut has 200 forms and even that is considered excessive. And obviously not every practioner knows every form.
    Furthermore, the part about all these styles like Pa Kua, Xing Yi and Taiji being practiced in the temple is complete bull****.

    Shaolin Ie Lu Lian Chien Gun (1st road of shaolin connected sticks)
    1st road of Shaolin connected sticks (nunchaku)
    2nd Road of Shaolin Connected sticks (nunchuku) (to be taught March 2003)

    ***"Shaolin connected sticks?" aka Nunchuks are not a Chinese weapon. There are no Chinese styles as far as I know that use nunchuks.


    Tie Cha Chuan (sai weapon)

    ***Sai is also not a traditional Chinese weapon. Was this practiced in the temple?

    Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan (64)
    Classical 8-section Pa Kua Chang
    Shing Yi 5 roads
    Shing Yi 5 roads linked form
    Shing Yi 12 animal forms
    Shing Yi 2 man set
    Yang Jia Tai Chi Jian (Tai Chi sword)
    Black Belt 3rd - 4th degree (4 years required to complete this level)
    Tang Lang Chien -Praying Mantis Fist
    Yang Se Tai Chi Tao -Tai Chi Broadsword
    Tai Chi Tao Tue Ta -Tai Chi Broadsword 2 man set
    Chen Tai Chi Chuan -Chen Tai Chi New Generation 83 Posture
    Pa Kua Pa Sing Chang -8 Animal Pa Kua Palm
    Praying Mantis System
    Pa Kua Spear
    Pa Kua Wu Tze kun (sun moon fork)
    Snake (Python) Pa Kua Chang from E-Mei

    ***None of the forms listed above are Shaolin forms. Therefore even if the dog face monk learned all the forms of the so called "Fukien "Shaolin Temple he would not have learned these.
    So where did these forms come from? Who certified any Shaolin Do instructor to teach these forms? Xing Yi, Pa Kua and Taiji are all systems unto themselves and were not taught in any Shaolin temple and certainly not under these names. Where did these forms come from? They don't just appear. They come from somewhere. Further, most of these forms are Northern Chinese in origin. How would they have ended up in the Fukien Shaolin Temple? Why do most styles of Southern origin look nothing like these forms that were supposedly taught in the Southern Temple? For example, Hung Ga, CLF, Mok Ga, Bak Mei, Li Ga, Choy Ga all claim Shaolin origins and all share similiarities yet very few with Pa Kua, Xing Yi or Taiji?

    3) TRADITIONS

    Background:

    Traditionally, students of Chinese kung fu would not wear anything special to kung fu. They would wear there work clothes. These were traditional Chinese pants that required a sash to be held up and traditional chinese coat with hooked buttons.
    When kung fu came to the western world and with the adancement of the textiles industries students changed to loose fitting elastic waisted pants and tshirts. The "traditional" outfit is usually only worn for special performances. The sash remains fixture of the uniform mainly because certain sash colors became associated with certain styles. Sash color had nothing to do with advancement or rank. In addition shoes were worn during training because training might have taken place outside or the pracitioners may have had to be ready to leave at anytime.

    Shaolin Do:

    Shaolin Do wears a traditional JAPANESE karate Gi. They have a belt grading. They don't wear shoes when they train. These are all the hallmarks of traditional KARATE aka JAPANESE training. Shaolin Do (according to shaolincenter.com) claims that:

    "Grand Master Ming left China and settled in Bandung, Indonesia where he began to teach the Shaolin art. In Indonesia a law was passed prohibiting the teaching of Chinese Martial Arts. Grand Master Ie circumvented this law by adopting many of the trappings of the Japanese styles of martial arts. He changed the name from Shaolin Tao to Shaolin Do. He changed the uniforms from the classical Chinese styles to the Japanese karate gi's. He also used Japanese belts instead of the Chinese sash and instituted a ranking system similar to the Japanese using Japanese names. The changes, although cosmetic, were enough for the authorities and he was allowed to continue to teach."

    Cross examination:

    Can anyone verify this law? Anyone in Indonesia. This whole story sounds concocted. Why would they ban only Chinese martial arts as opposed to all martial arts? It seems hokey that anyone would pass a law that was that specific. Further, what are the chances that a native born Chinese would just nonchalantly pick up the trappings of Japanese dress. The Chinese and Japanese have not always had very amicable opinions of each other. I have a hard time imagining this scenario especially 50 years ago.

    More to come......
    Last edited by Fu-Pow; 08-27-2003 at 03:29 PM.

  2. #2
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    Have you not realized that no one cares yet?
    May as well delete this thread...
    (no I didnt bother reading it, and no Im not going to bother arguing with you, why not use your time posting to post something intelligent?)

  3. #3
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    Question

    about the indo thing....if cma was banned and doa and tao is just mandarin and cantonese (i'm right right?) then what was the point in changing the name to a diff' dialect of chinese if chinese arts were banned?.

  4. #4
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    The nunchaku can be found in alot of different coutnries, just not Okinawa or Japan. There probably are some systems of CMA that use the nunchaku. As for the sai, Ngo Cho uses the sai in there system of fighting.
    I have a signature.

  5. #5
    Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
    ...
    Have you not realized that no one cares yet?
    May as well delete this thread...
    (no I didnt bother reading it, and no Im not going to bother arguing with you, why not use your time posting to post something intelligent?)
    ^^^^^^
    Yep, and we do care, fantasy dan, this shaolin do-do has his own fantasy theories and will not consider the FACTS. But, we who have studied know these fishy shaolin do-do fantasies and will not allow one to get away with such crap. Karate do it is and the Indo connection is bull, too.

    Respect,
    Bo
    Last edited by bobojoe02; 08-27-2003 at 04:01 PM.

  6. #6
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    Talkin' about kicking a dead horse, this thread is so played out... I've only been here a month, and I'm already sick of it. Find something better to B*tch about.

    a little word of advice for those who have to make fun of SD...
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  7. #7
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    Funny how when I actually provide some factual evidence from the Shaolin Do websites you guys starting calling this issue a dead horse.

    I thought you guys were the big experts on your art. What's the matter you don't have any answers to my criticisms???

    It's much easier to sit and B|TCH about how it's all opinion and I'm such an evil a$$ho|e. . When I actually give you the facts you wimp out... now respond GOD**** IT!!!!

    Or you just prove that your full of SH|T and your art is a fraud.
    Last edited by Fu-Pow; 08-27-2003 at 05:35 PM.

  8. #8
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    Philbert is correct. Ngor Chor has the sai.
    cxxx[]:::::::::::>
    Behold, I see my father and mother.
    I see all my dead relatives seated.
    I see my master seated in Paradise and Paradise is beautiful and green; with him are men and boy servants.
    He calls me. Take me to him.

  9. #9
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    Dead Horsey Award time.

    Witty signature under construction.

  10. #10
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    you either have some serious anger managment problems or you see you have to justify your existance by bashing other peoples MA. Pesonally, I don't care about SD. Yes, I took it, No, I never will again. But, You don't see me BEATING THE DEAD HORSE. I don't care if people choose to spend money on Shaolin-Do, and neither should you. Its none of your business what people want to do...SO LET IT BE
    CPA's current P4P List:
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  11. #11
    Almost everyone of these points have been addressed. The only one, and the first time I have ever heard it, was the question about the Fukien temple. I'll have to do some research on this one.

    At least one of your points I don't even agree with. I have never heard of a law that prevented teaching of Chinese martial arts in Indonesia.

    For everything else just search the boards.
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  12. #12
    I will respond to your research one by one as I have time. Also, I will make no claims against you that my rebuttals are absolute FACT, but I will maintain that what we contend with in our material is legitimately POSSIBLE.

    Originally posted by Fu-Pow
    1)DUBIOUS HISTORY

    Shaolin Do history (according to shaolincenter.com) claims that a monk with hypertrichosis named Su Kong Tai Djin (1849-1929) was raised in the Fukien Shaolin temple and learned all their sets.

    Then another student name Ie Chang Ming (1880-1976) trained there and learned all there was to learn and left the temple to teach in Singapore.
    Correction, you did not state accurately the 'account' of Grandmaster Ie. He was a monk at the temple with Su, however he did not 'learn all there was to learn and leave to teach in Singapore' he left the temple and continued to study with Su Kong for several years. After Su Kongs death and during the turbulent times in china with the Boxer Rebellion and the cultural revolution that would soon take place, Grand Master Ie and several of his new colleagues fled China to Indonesia.

    MANY other masters of that generation fled China to foreign lands as well. It's a well known fact that during these chaotic decades in that country many masters and styles were destroyed or nearly destroyed. Martial arts training was banned after the communist's took control and whole family's and well known master's were labeled enemies of the state and imprisoned or put to death. A tremendous amount of 'traditional' knowledge and training techniques was forever lost with the passing of these great teachers. IT'S POSSIBLE, that GrandMaster Ie was a student of these old styles and training who escaped with some of his comtemporaries to Indonesia. When the modern China circa late '60's early '70's realized that they could not fully repress the heritage of it's martial arts, it officially adopted it an international treasure and began sponsoring 'wushu' competitions.

    Originally posted by Fu-Pow
    Cross-examination:

    Where was this Fukien shaolin temple that these two "monks" trained at?
    Only recently has anything been found that even resembles a Southern Shaolin Temple. According to legend it was destroyed in the early Ching dynasty which began in 1644. The archeological evidence seems to support this. 1850 is not early Ching dynasty. Furthermore if the temple had existed around 50-100 years ago when the dog face monk and his student supposedly trained there don't you think that other people in the area would have known about the temple? And yet this temple was highly disputed to even exist until it was discovered in the last couple of years. The temple that exist there now was built in 1991.
    Ok, you have stated that 'only recently has anything been found' that substantiates the existence of a southern temple. Master Sin has been stating it's existence since his first student in the '60's. This historical dispute is finally getting some recent attention, but Master Sin and no doubt many many others have maintained that there was indeed a temple in Fukien province and maybe only in legends. The truth is in the details and as such IT'S POSSIBLE that the archeological evidence may resolve the issue. If it is proven that a temple did exist and survived until 50-100 years ago, what then? We will receive some small vindication. Neither of us are qualified enough to conclude based upon current research that it did or did not exist.

    Consider this....China was a great mystery to most of the world community until Richard Nixon opened the doors to the country with his visit as president. This means that a large part of what we know about China and it's history, it's local legends, etc is still in it's infantcy. Nearly one out of every six people in the WORLD are chinese. That's over a BILLION people with a BILLION different views. So how many of those BILLION people (or whatever the census was at the time) was living in the vicinity of the alleged temple? How many of those 'local's that survived the upheaval of their society remember the temple that are untraceable today? Of those that knew anything about the temple, would they be eager to speak up and be noticed, or would they deny knowledge in order to remain safe from the 'cleansing' that was taking place all around them?

    According the stories about Su Kong it is said that they were tipped off that they were about to be beseiged and destroyed, and it was decided that rather than let that happen, they would voluntarily flee the temple and destroy it themselves. IT'S POSSIBLE, if the temple survived until the late 1800's early 1900's that after it's destruction, something else could have been built on top of it's location. China has a population explosion going on at the time that requires a lot of valuable space. Current archeological research is looking for something 'old' and IT'S POSSIBLE that no one is looking for something 'recent.' Maybe the temple existed during the Ching dynasty was destroyed and then rebuilt at a new secret and secluded location that survived until recent times. Why would anyone want to reestablish a temple (that was destroyed) in a known location and chance being destroyed again? Makes sense to relocate and take extra security measures to protect the new temple and remain safe.

    This is all hypothetical and serves only to illustrate that IT IS A POSSIBILITY that we just flat out don't know the details of a fukien temple.

    More to come....
    Blessed are the flexible, for they shall never break under the pressure!

  13. #13
    Shaolin Ie Lu Lian Chien Gun (1st road of shaolin connected sticks)
    1st road of Shaolin connected sticks (nunchaku)
    2nd Road of Shaolin Connected sticks (nunchuku) (to be taught March 2003)

    ***"Shaolin connected sticks?" aka Nunchuks are not a Chinese weapon. There are no Chinese styles as far as I know that use nunchuks.
    CMA does in fact have both 2 and 3 sectioned staffs, which I guess you could call "Nunchucks".

    Hope this helps.

  14. #14
    If he was hiding the art's Chinese origins, why change the Dao to Do but leave in the word Shaolin!? That makes no sense at all.

    Even if he called it Shorinji Do (which is Japanese for Shaolin Way) it would still mean that the art was CHinese. No one is so stupid as to think that it's no longer CHinese because the name is Japanese. It makes no sense at all.
    "i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it" - GDA on Traditional vs Modern Wushu
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  15. #15
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    See, here is what I find funny.

    First of all, how many people who bash Shaolin-Do have any experience with it? Who here has met, observed a class, or even fought a practioner of the art? Even if you have, faceless bashing of the art shows one's own immaturity.

    Second of all, what about other "unusual" arts? We got Chung Moo Quan or whatever, who has a Grandmaster who claims he can do a flying sidekick off an 11 story building. No one here creates 20 threads a week bashing that. He also claims that every woman he slept with either kills herself or becomes a nun because he is so great in bed.

    Thirdly, what about Temple Kung Fu? We got O.E. Simon who runs around claiming to be some Omnipotent being, they have cult practices, etc. No one bashes them.

    Only Shaolin-Do of the "bashed" arts gets bashed the most. The 3 most bashed have to be Shaolin-Do, Temple Kung Fu and Chung Moo Quan. The only thing unusual about Shaolin-Do other than the Chewbacca thing (which no one here has yet to confirm OR deny an existence of such a being) is the 980 forms or whatever that encompasses the art. And some people here have even claimed more forms are added to it from outside practioners. Meaning they go up to a 7* guy and he shows them some forms, some techniques and they incorporate them into there own style.
    I have a signature.

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