Kung Fu is humiliated by Brazilian Jiujitsu!!!!!!!

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah, everybody knows the SEALS barely train H2H. However, IMHO anybody that can make it through BUDS and then operate on a SEAL team is nobody I want to mess with regardless of technical skill.

"Who's house?"
"I said RUN's house."

[GinSueDog]

Anyone can claim to train the SEALs, there isn't any universal SEAL training program after all. It is all up to the commander of the team and what he thinks his guys need, the Navy high ups for the most part stays out of it. Some SEAL teams are not designed for H2H combat and are unlikely to be put in such a situation (like the boat teams and UDT teams), others like SEAL Team 6 have a very strong chance of being put into a H2H situation. The only force in the United States that trains all there soldiers in H2H combat is the US Army's Rangers which incorporates BJJ into it. Anyways my only point is, it isn't that big a deal that Rickson was training SEALs, a lot of people can make the same claim and have, how do you think SCARS makes it's money?-ED

[Watchman]

GinSueDog, you may have gotten your info about the "Rangers doing BJJ" from an A&E show about fighting arts. The show interviewed some Ranger Captain that "just happend to be" a personal student of Rickson Gracie. While that portion of the show may have gave the impression that every Ranger studies BJJ as part of his training, that is in fact not the case. Just like the SEALs, each Ranger company has a lot of latitude about what they incorporate into their regular training, and individual Ranger Captains can set specific training requirements for the guys under their individual commands.

You know if I was a Ranger Captain, you'd be for **** sure that every person under my command would be training in Wing Chun -- and there would not be a **** thing they could do about it. :D

BTW, the captain they interviewed also said that, "this training has no place on the battlefield, and we would never try it in combat" but said the reason he had his men practice BJJ was to learn "discipline".

You may have gotten your info from somewhere else, and if so I apologize.

Anyway, I've got a student cycling into Ranger training soon, so I'll have to ask him if they make him do BJJ if he manages to make it through the training and get himself into a Ranger company.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[GinSueDog]

Watchman,
From what I have heard and read, a program of twelve basics developed by the Torrance Academy for the Army is being taught as part of the ranger training. Any new rangers will have to learn those twelve basics as part of there hand to hand training inorder to become rangers. The rangers are the only US military force that requires all members to go through an extensive H2H training program as part of there ranger training (btw, that training program also includes Judo throws, karate style reverse punches, and muay thai kicks, an interesting mix). Most of my family has served or is currently serving in the military in one aspect or another, one of my Uncles was a ranger during Desert Storm and Panama. He got out just before Somalia.-ED

P.S.-I don't know what all the twelve moves are, but from what I read most of it involves positioning. Maybe someone here may have more information, I know Knifefighter trains with Royce he may have more info on the program.

[This message was edited by GinSueDog on 03-29-01 at 03:46 PM.]

[Watchman]

I respectfully stand corrected. Thanks for the additional information GinSueDog.

[GinSueDog]

Watchman,
No problem, my only point was that people making claims to training military units really isn't that big of a deal. I am curious as to what exactly is taught to various units as alot of it does involve whatever the CO thinks they need. I was surprized to see rangers reverse punching each other in the chest at there ranger school. Most hand to hand training from what I have heard is pretty basic and varies depending on the needs and wants of the CO. Let us know how it goes with your student, I am really curious. BTW, I did see a show on discovery about the rangers that had an interview with one of the drill instructors teaching the BJJ and he seemed kinda bias or inexperienced anyways. I think there were a lot of posts on it sometime ago.-ED

[Stranger]

I understand that just getting through BUDS makes you a badass, but it doesn't qualify you to step into a highly controlled enviornment like the octagon and fight somebody who trains 8+ hours a day for that particular scenario.

I also understand that it was no huge accomplishment as a MA to give one seminar to the SEAL teams. My point was that the SEALs don't train H2H much, and they consider Rickson to be their senior in H2H knowledge even though he has never been to BUDS or acquired the diverse combat skills a SEAL has. It is a matter of Rickson and ROyce being specialists and SEALs have to operate in many more possible combat scenarios.

The Tao is an uncarved block of wood in which all shapes are possible.

[Watchman]

Stranger, a perfect case in point was one of the UFC 2 fighters named David Levicki. He actually served in SEAL Team 6 for five years during the whole Iran/Iraq fracas, but didn't make it through the preliminaries of the Octagon.

I knew the guy personally and was there in Denver to see it all go down. Dave survived extended combat action in "the desert", but got squelched in a NHB tournament. Go figure.

[Archangel]

He also fought in the Japanese Vale Tudo. He was a Wing Chun fighter and a big strong guy, unfortunately he met Rickson Gracie in the Semi finals and got squashed. Rickson was kind of a dick in that fight getting full mount and smashing David in the face well after he tapped out.

[KnightSabre]

Yeah I remmember that Rickson,Levicki fight.David is massive,I'm sure he's close to 6'8 300.Anywayz Rickson gave him a pretty bad beating,at one stage he was kind of sitting on him and driving knees into his back.

[Watchman]

Actually, applying the term "Wing Chun fighter" to him is a misnomer. Levicki's entire Wing Chun training consisted of spotty attendance to a bi-weekly two hour class over the course of little more than a year.

After he washed out of UFC 2 he hooked up with Gerard Gerdeu's Kamakura organization and shipped off to Holland to study Savate and Sambo before he got spanked by Rickson. If you want to know why Rickson was a little "mean", it's because Levicki had apparently made some "choice" remarks about/to Rickson before the fight. At least that's what Levicki told my brother.

Anyway, the fact that Art Davie ever let him into UFC 2 is beyond me. I still have the program (and my security pass) from the event, and every single piece of information on Levicki that was published in the promotional material was a complete fabrication by Art Davie, including Levicki's actual real experience and his "fight record".

It makes you wonder about the other fighters as well. It has been good to see the talent pool and skill level of the UFC grow since it was sold off by the Gracies.

[reemul]

15 years does not a master make, at least from our perspective, so let me clarify.

Shaolin systems (old school that is) regard mastery as "life devotion". It was unheard of acknowledgement of mastery to occur under the age of about 35 to 40 years old. I have 12 years experience and I'm only regarded as an advanced student. I may become an instructor soon, however that is still not a master.

[Archangel]

And still no Kung fu guys entering. I know there were a few in the early UFC's, but since then hasn't anybody in the Kung Fu community wanted to become a professional fighter.

[Watchman]

True, and point taken.

[Dragon Warrior]

just give it some time. Kung fu guys will start to participate in more nhb events. Right now it is just not very popular with kung fu stylist.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.