Hey guys, I need some opinions.

[Ryu]

Okay.
As most of you know, I'm now teaching JKDC. Been doing well, and have been gaining moderate success slowly but surely.

I have this friend who is going to take lessons as well...
(I've mentioned him once before)

This friend is the kind of person who is very..."fantasy" prone.
He was grossly overweight (obese) as a teenager, and very anti-social. In his 20's now, he has since lost LOTS of weight (close to 170 pounds!) and is slowly getting up his confidence too. Which is good.

He's worked out with me before, but never in a real serious manner. (I would occasionally give him pointers on how to punch, grapple, etc.)
He also takes lessons at a state college which does kung fu ( I don't know which style) and Japanese jiu-jitsu.

Now...
My friend, like I said is "fantasy" prone. He lives in this world of comics, "Batman" stories, and the like....
in fact, I think he sometimes "sees" himself as these types of superhero personas....

The only thing is.....

He's not half as good or knowledable or tough as he'd like to believe.
I'd like to bring him down to earth a little bit. I thought that some real lessons of boxing, grappling, and athletic training would do him some good.
And when we actually do train, he's since realized that more than half the stuff he "trained" in the past doesn't work....

But regardless.....he CONSTANTLY talks as if he is immensely knowledgable in MA....

and he's not. Not even a little bit.

Just tonight we were talking on the phone, and he wanted me to "review" his stuff from the other class so he could test there. I told him
"Well, I can look at it, but your teacher and I are teaching two different types of things."

He said, "Well I found out what style we do. We do "Gong fu" (with that accent) and "jiu-jitsu." (the stuff he showed to me was classical JJJ)

then he said "I think you guys are doing the same thing."

(I've told him countless times I teach Jeet Kune Do Concepts, and what that entails.)

I said, "Well I don't think so. What style of kung fu does he teach?"

My friend said "Huh?"

Then my friend said "But we did jiu-jitsu together!"

I said "That was Brazilian jiu-jitsu, not Japanese jiu-jitsu"

He said" Oh what? How many kinds of jiu-jitsu are there??"

(He has NO real knowledge of the MA world...at all.)

I said later "You know we should get together and just have a discussion about martial art. Just so you can get familiar with what it really is, how many styles and systems there are...you know, just to get some good knowledge...."

His answer. "Yeah. Well....I already have a LOT of knowledge. I've been studying about it for years."

(No he hasn't...he reads magazines, and watches Highlander...)

I said "Well let's talk anyway. "


It's not that he's arrogant or anything.....he just....
thinks he knows more than he actually does.

What's the best way to teach someone like this? Any opinions?
What would you do in my place?
Just wanted to get other ideas. Since I know him personally, it makes it easier for me....but that "fantasy" he lives in is going to come crashing down around him one day....

And I think he honestly knows that......but doesn't want to admit it.

He also makes sweeping overexaggerations.

(i.e. "Well I used to train greco roman wrestling and amateur wrestling for a long time...."

Me: "Where did you study Greco/Roman at?"

Him: "What?"

Me: "Who taught you Greco/Roman?"

Him: "Well...I..... my friend showed me a few moves..."




Opinions, please.

Thanks

Ryu

[Laughing Cow]

Ryu.

I would send him to a friend to train and take him down a notch or two.

My advise is don't do it yourself, as it can and most likely will affect your relationship.

Unfortunately there are many people like him out there, most of them some day will quit quietly and not mention their training again, others will come online to sprout their knowledge.

One thing one of my teachers told me I think still rings true.

"I won't teach you anything new, but I will show how to use what you got to the optimum benefit in in ways that you don't know now."

IMHO, you can't change a person you can guide them and hope that they will change/adjust by themselves.

Just my thoughts.

[Ralek]

You should use BJJ to beat him. Just tap him out a whole bunch.

Brcue Lee created JKD becuase kung fu didn't work. We must follow in Bruce Lee's foot steps and bring as many people as we can away from fantasy based martial arts like kungfu.

[Chang Style Novice]

Jeez, I dunno...can you spend an evening with him in the waiting room of an ER to see what kind of stuff comes through? Just a thought.

[Ryu]

I swear to God, Ralek, if you hijack my thread....


Tapping him out humbles him at the moment, but still doesn't seem to get him away from those fantasies...

Laughing Cow, thanks for the input. You might be right.

Guys, please give me as many opinions as you can on this.


(And seriously, do not turn it into a "I'll show you, Ralek!" type of thing... )

Ryu

[Serpent]

One small point - if he said gong fu rather than kung fu then he's probably learning a southern system or from a southern teacher. In Cantonese, it's pronouced gong or gung. Maybe that's relevant.

As to the case in hand, you need to have that talk. You need to explain how a lot of stuff is good for training and a lot of stuff is good for actually using on people and that the two often don't meet. Then offer to show him a few things (so that he's getting more than a lecture!) but choose things that are simple, not in the least bit flashy, yet brutally effective. Then explain the other stuff again. Tell him not to be blinded by comic book and movie fu and that he needs to learn the real McCoy if he's serious about it. Otherwise he should learn something like contemporary wushu which is likely to be a lot less practical but more like his Batman comics.

(By the way, Batman RULES! Grrr! Don't slag off the Dark Knight, OK, or I'm gonna have to do something really geeky!)

[Ralek]

Kung fu people think that thier artful and dance like forms will prepare them for real fights on the street.

But in the real world fights are hard like they are in boxing and wrestling, and you need a style that was forged in the heat of real fights like BJJ.

BJJ fighters have repeatedly demonstrated their ability to defeat kungfu fighters.

[Serpent]

Oh Ralek, you're like herpes. Every time you think it's gone away it flares up again with the same old irritations.

Ryu, just ignore him - we're in this thread for you, mate.

[Cody]

Much of what has already been said is practical and reasonable.

I think that more than anything, your friend is looking for approval, even if that comes from your inadvertently participating in his fantasy world.

If it weren't martial arts, it might be writing the great American novel (but not putting in the time to do so....), or something like that. Thing is that people prone to a world of dreams can expend quite a bit of energy, and not be very creative about it either. I think it's a crap shoot what would happen to a person like this if he were badly beaten in 3D.

I think also that one thing you might consider is whether this person is truly interested in real martial arts (or anything for that matter), or only in fantasy. Your approach has been a good one, especially is someone wants to be informed. I don't think he does, and I think you both know it. Sometimes, as much as you want to make a difference in someone's life, the motivation just isn't there on the other side. Hope he wakes up, cause you're a good friend.

Cody

[Merryprankster]

Just keep beating him. Eventually, he's going to ask "how you keep doing that."

Tell him. But don't tell him I beat you with x by doing y. Tell him:

"Well, the first thing I did was get in shape. The second thing I did was learn to move. The final thing I did was spar--and I did a lot of it. The truth is that none of what we do works without those three basics."

Give him some training concepts to grasp on to.

Sounds like he needs them.

[Goldenmane]

Kinda difficult one, Ryu.

Obviously, I don't know the guy, so anything I say can only be entirely speculative. I'm sure you'll take anything I say in the spirit it is intended.

One possibility is to introduce him to certain MA discussion boards on the net, actually. It doesn't sound like he's especially stupid, it just sounds like he's caught up in his fantasy world, drawn from reading stuff and a reaction to a sense of inferiority... maybe.

The reason I suggest maybe discussion forums is that they are text based, and that plays on his reading/fantasy thing. Plus, of course, he will soon be told that he doesn't know anything much at all. Without being beaten to a pulp.

Another idea might be to just take him "into the ring" as it were, and show him that he's placing himself at severe risk. It's possibly a little harsh, but from what I have read of your stuff over the last several years you probably have enough skill to toss him around like a rag doll and pummel him for long enough (and yet gently enough that he doesn't recieve any real injury) to make it clear to him that he has to admit that he is fooling himself.

Another option is to take him on a tour of serious schools, if you can arrange it, while these schools are in the midst of their most hefty training sessions. Might humble him enough to break the fantasy barrier. Let him smell the sweat, see the blood, hear the grunts...

Perhaps just make the guy sit down and listen while you rant at him, starting with the sentence, "Listen, mate, you don't know sh!t, and I'm going to tell you why!"

Collect and tell him stories about people who displayed the same behaviour and came to grisly ends (or maybe were simply drastically disabused).

Pile him down with tremendous amounts of reading material.

Take him somewhere he can't easily get home from and have a frank, serious discussion with him.

Take him into a dangerous bar where fights are common, and make him sit there and watch.

Try as I might, I cannot seem to come up with an option that is "easy" on him. He's living in a dangerous fantasy (as you are obviously aware) and is not likely to let it go easily. It seems that he needs a shock of some sort, and if you are serious about breaking him out of his fantasy world then you are electing yourself to administer that shock. The advantage, of course, being that you are in control and therefore the shock is under control. It could be considered Crisis Therapy (just made that name up, don't know if anyone has coined it before me)... it has existed in various forms for a long time.

We've both (all/most) seen people who have lived in a similar fantasy world, often though not exclusively through attending "McDojos", who have suffered this short sharp shock in an uncontrolled fashion. Basically, they get the crud beaten out of them in a major way. We're familiar with the responses to this, so I don't feel the need to go into them. I suspect, though, that providing the shock in a controlled way may be the only way to break the guy's fantasy, hence the above suggestions.

[Ralek]

The sad thing is that most of the kung fu people on this forum are also living this same kung fu fantasy.

How many people here seriously believe in chi power? aparantly many here do.

How many seriously believe thier horse stance squatting and kungfu forms are preparing them for real fights? too many

How many are chambering their punches at the hip like a wacked out karate person and not realizing that's a bad thing? kung fu guys don't realize that.

How many people here no nothing of grapping but just imagine in their head they will just bite and eye gouge and believe this will stop any wrestler or BJJer?

This is a kung fu fantasy that you guys are part of yourselves. This thread is about you guys just as much as it is of Ryu's friend.

[quiet man]

Originally posted by Ralek
But in the real world fights are hard like they are in boxing and wrestling, and you need a style that was forged in the heat of real fights like BJJ.

... whereas WC (for example) was forged in those long elaborated discussions Yip Man's had with Wong Shun Leung and Lok Yiu while sitting in their comfy chairs and sipping fine wine.

Originally posted by Ralek
BJJ fighters have repeatedly demonstrated their ability to defeat kungfu fighters.

Good for them!!!

[scotty1]

At last a troll whose skills I can respect....

But on topic, I couldn't add anything to what's already been said.

[Brad]

One small point - if he said gong fu rather than kung fu then he's probably learning a southern system or from a southern teacher. In Cantonese, it's pronouced gong or gung. Maybe that's relevant.

My teacher who only speaks Mandarin pronounces it closer to "gongfu" than kungfu. So I'd have to disagree