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Thread: Learning to fight vs learning a MA style.

  1. #16
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    Seems to me styles are just abstract names given to some very loose set of training methods that occasionally or often are grouped together. Accross the board I see very wide dispersement of training methods and how they are grouped together.
    Bullshlt.

    A style is a fighting philosophy. Different schools have different philosophies, which emphasize different combat techniques. Someone who properly trains in Taijiquan is easily discerned from someone training in Tanglang in a combat situation, even though both are "hitting their opponent with your hands, arms, legs, whatever."

    If one school emphasizes using elbows, while another school emphasizes using high kicks, you have two distinctly different fighting philosophies...i.e. STYLES.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  2. #17
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    A style is a fighting philosophy

    Bull****.

    "philosophy" might be one of the ways 'they' went or go about choosing or developing the training methods.

    If one school emphasizes using elbows, while another school emphasizes using high kicks, you have two distinctly different fighting philosophies...i.e. STYLES.

    Your right. Different schools will look different from one another. Little of it has to do with what they call themselves, its what they actually do, day to day, training, sweating, etc, that makes them what they are when it comes time to throw down. None of it has to do with what letters you choose to put on your banners. I have never ever seen two people that look exactly the same when fighting, moving, eating, walking, or anything.

    strike!

  3. #18
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    OK, Bruce.....

    I didn't know we were getting into Deconstructionists Theory here.

    Read any good Ferdinand deSaussere lately?
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 09-04-2003 at 08:57 AM.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  4. #19
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    this troll brought to you by the letter C

    "philosophy" might be one of the ways 'they' went or go about choosing or developing the training methods.
    You're taking the view of philosophy equals pedagogy. I do not entirely disagree.

    There are at least 2 arts that begin with what you already do and maximise that rather than reinvent the wheel each time...Koo SD and that Sikh art that uses the Panthra. I suppose maybe police/military arts do the same.

    So what's being argued? Are those any less 'arts' than ones which demand you change every aspect of yourself? No- we're just arguing pedagogy here...
    -Thos. Zinn

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  5. #20
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    Yenhoi and MK,

    You're both very clever people. And I'd be fascinated to hear what you come up with if you could stop flinging poop at one another.

    Whaddya say?
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  6. #21
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    Im not throwing poop.

    When does someone change from a normal person into a "martial artist."

    strike!

  7. #22
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    Originally posted by yenhoi
    Im not throwing poop.

    When does someone change from a normal person into a "martial artist."

    I know you aren't, mate. Neither of you are really. I was just trying to keep things light.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  8. #23
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    Well, looking beyond esoteric literary theory, and accepting the fact that we, as a species, tend to categorize things according to similarity in appearance and function in order to better assimilate to and understand the world around us, one can reasonably conclude that fighting aspects which resemble can be grouped and separated from fighting aspects which do not resemble.

    BJJ does not resemble Northen Shaolin.

    A BJJ fighter will not practice or focus on the same techniques as a Northern Shaolin fighter, let alone place the same emphasis on standing vs. ground positioning.

    A BJJ fighter will not attack or defend with the same techniques as a Northern Shaolin fighter.

    Unless you are just jumping in the fray and flopping your arms and legs around, hoping to make significant enough contact to end the melee, you are adhering to a philosophy of movement, striking, and defending which you have been taught. If your opponent has been trained in BJJ, and you have been trained in Northern Shaolin, your philosophies of how to engage and end a fight will probably not be the same.

    While the difference is less noticeable between one CMA style and another, the basic principle still holds.

    And yes, I'm aware that I'm not typing on a K-E-Y-B-O-A-R-D, but in order to properly assimilate this thing, with keys, and letters on the keys, which is plugged into my computer, which is plugged into a T1 line, that allows me to print words online, I have to call it a 'keyboard.'
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 09-04-2003 at 09:29 AM.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  9. #24
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    OK, my .02 worth. What level of classifications do you want to go to. In biology there are numerous levels... we have done something similar with fighting in a way.

    Fighting
    Ground fighting

    Fighting
    stand up

    Fighting
    grappling

    etc... do want it further expanded?
    practice wu de


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  10. #25
    Originally posted by apoweyn


    It's not that I disagree with your feelings on the matter. I disagree with your categorization. Learning a martial art vs. learning to fight. To my mind, it's a question of which you consider the horse and which you consider the cart.

    For me, real life is the horse. It has to lead. And I'm not talking about some over-dramatized urban jungle nonsense. I'm not suggesting that my life is a day-in day-out struggle for survival on the mean streets of Alexandria.

    What I'm saying is that we all learned moves in our martial arts classes. Maybe we learned them in a mirror, through forms, on a bag, whatever. In any event, we very often hit a point where we spar (or actually fight) and start receiving new feedback. The techniques don't come off the way they did in the mirror. They don't hit as solidly or cleanly as on the bag. They don't flow as well as they did in the form. Whatever.

    Now, at this point, there are basically two avenues. Some people will reason that they've failed to internalize their art sufficiently. So they'll go back, focus more vehemently on their training, walk the walk, etc. In the hopes that, next time, they'll have absorbed the style sufficiently that it'll manifest itself the way it should.

    Other people reason that adaptation is the key. No plan survives contact with the enemy, and all that. The basic principles are sound, but the execution needs to be less idealized. It needs to be guided by the way things really are. The way people really are. So modifications are made around those basic principles and theories. They don't bulldoze over them.

    Some people are going to make that observation and then choose their avenue earlier than others. And some styles are likely to do that sooner than others as well, depending on where in the curriculum sparring begins. So it's not (in my opinion) that a boxer has no patience for the finer points of martial arts. (I chose boxing, but this may not be fair to your point. I apologize if it isn't.) It's that the boxer is brought into contact with the non-idealized mess of sparring very early on, so he has to make the choice very early on regarding his training. Try harder to internalize the style? Or make modifications to fit "reality"?

    Either is a valid approach. And what bends me out of shape is the insinuation that one produces less of a martial artist than the other.


    Stuart B.
    Seems like the correct is contaigious... Ap has caught it also.
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  11. #26
    engage
    --trap
    --push
    --bum rush

    fight
    --strike
    --throw/takedown
    --stab/club


    In it's most primitive state, bjj does resemble northern shaolin.
    Now, here's the question... What does it matter what you look like when you fight? After four years of longfist, when I fight, I still look like a thai boxer. Doesn't matter - that just what I like. What matters is whether or not I survive when I have to. Even within the confines of a "style" people will still have their own distinct flavor. MP and I are both grapplers, but If you look at us, it's likely that we don't grapple alike. Does it matter? No. Getting the job done is what matters.

    "He got his butt kicked, but you sure can tell he studies mantis!" When it comes to fighting, style really isn't a necessity.

    I kinda forgot where I was going with all this, so I'll stop here. It's time to hit the gym anyway.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  12. #27
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    Jews, Christians, and Muslims all pray, right? So their religions must all be the same. Once you start looking at the details, differences become glaringly obvious.

    After four years of longfist, when I fight, I still look like a thai boxer. Doesn't matter - that just what I like.
    The reason you fight like a Thai Boxer is because you believe in Thai Boxing. If you don't accept the training, it doesn't automatically sink in, no matter how many forms you do.

    In it's most primitive state, bjj does resemble northern shaolin.
    Again, once you start looking at the details, differences become glaringly obvious.
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 09-04-2003 at 10:41 AM.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  13. #28
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    Whatever you're looking for becomes glaringly obvious. I can see great similarities between eskrima and shotokan. But that's what I look for. Common ground.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  14. #29
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    Nevertheless, eskrima is different than shotokan is some respects. Therefore, they are separate STYLES.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  15. #30
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    Originally posted by MasterKiller
    Nevertheless, eskrima is different than shotokan is some respects. Therefore, they are separate STYLES.
    And yet, both are manifest through me (and others). Not as pure entities unto themselves. But as imperfect and amalgamated performances based on my capabilities, experiences, and decisions.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

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