who said its cheating?

[rogue]

Honor in a fight was murdered by Royce Gracie in UFC1! Only a dishonorable man would take someone to the ground.

[Starchaser107]

taking a man to the ground is one thing
but staying there while hugging and rolling together...that is truly dishonourable

[themeecer]

There are two types of fights, the ones you fight fair in and the ones you win.

[Volcano Admim]

unhonored or dishonored is the guy that attacks me


Feel the rhythm with your hands
Steal the rhythm while you can

[ComeToJesus]

I'm pretty sure that in old Japan those values existed.

[Laughing Cow]

Don't be so sure.

Old saying:

"There is honour in accepting defeat or victory, there is no honour during the fight."

Plenty of things like Chivalry and the Samurai code of honour have been distorted by badly done researchers and writers that fancied the romantic notions.

Do a search into what and who the Knights and Samurai really were and also about their lifestyles and the lifestyles of their families.

Samurai were soo honest that their wifes and kids were kept at the imperial palace in case they did something against the emperor which would result in execution of their wifes and kids.

Most of the Budo-Code was created/refined during the Edo-era, the one time when Japan was united and wars were few. All the Do-concepts and arts were created during peace times, do keep the warriors in control.
Compare that with the Muromachi period which was the true height of the Samurai.

Forget the romantic notions, war is war , fighting is fighting and neither is pretty nor a desired thing.

Ever wondered why most soldiers keep their mouth shut when it comes to their experiences?

Seeya.

[Starchaser107]

samurai. those were some seriously evil b@stards in reality. thier samurai code of honour might differ monumentally from what you expect it to be.

[Ray Pina]

I can say that growing up, I never kicked another kid/guy in the balls, never poked his eyes and still won those fights.

Once, an older kid got me in a head lock and I did grab him by the back of his head and pulled his hair -- at that point I HAD to, and it did the job.

I think if you have skill, you should be able to handle a one-on-one "street" fight with a similiar-sized foe without resortorting to foul play.

I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood of Newark, and understand the whole, do what you have to do to servive argument, but honestly, I personally haven't seen it.

The really sketchy times, there's not much you can do anyway. I had a few friends held up at gun point and knife point. You give them your $hit and feel like a punk later and hope they don't crack ya in the jaw before saying good by.

But when a kid tries to steal your bike, or insults your mom, there's no reason not to just roll up your sleeves and go at it ... kids used to even give me $hit about kicking! Saying I was fighting like a girl.

Didn't bother me. I just knew they wish they could. There kicks could be seen from last week.

[dwid]

I think if you have skill, you should be able to handle a one-on-one "street" fight with a similiar-sized foe without resortorting to foul play.

So, in other words, if you have one type of unfair advantage over your opponent then you don't need to utilize another type of unfair advantage.

What it boils down to is that fighting skills could allow you to beat a guy and get to feel doubly good about it, good for winning and good for not "cheating." It's all a bunch of bs. Only children and grown men with the minds of children fight when they don't absolutely have to. When you absolutely have to fight, there's no time for considering whether a tactic is honorable.

[Ray Pina]

I'll put it to you this way:

I was at an afterhours club not long ago dancing NEAR some big juice head's girl (there was some eye contact) and he tried to shove me.

I saw it coming, was able to step outside of him and rest my weight on his arms while leaning into his ear: "Is that your girl? (didn't wait for reply), then why don't you dance with her."

Now I could have just as easily palmed him in the balls, but no need to. I could control him. You know what I found: Go around hitting people in the balls and cutting them with knives for no reason, you get a coat job!

And for those folks living in the boonies who are suggesing the kill or be killed, a coat job is sitting on corner with friends waiting for this guy to walk by all nonchalant. Coat goes over his head, baseball bats and steal-toe boots come out.

Most of my fights have ended after a few shots. The guy realised I'm not backing down, and after the exchange they're worse for wear than me.

Look crazy and corner me in a dark alley, I'll assume you have a weapon and if you make a move I'll go all ape $hit.

But pinch my girls a$$ and not apologize, or take it further, I have no problem going outside and giving you an old fashion Godfather over the garbage can beating ... no ball kicking or eye poking needed. I'm confodent in my kung fu. It gets the job done

[dwid]

I understand what you're saying, and no offense intended.

So what it comes down to is that your skill allows you to exercise some control over how far the situation escalates. That's great. I guess what I'm saying is that you have kung fu and the other guy might have a screwdriver or a pool cue. When you think about it, it's no less fair for someone to try to even the odds/stack the deck one way than the other.

[norther practitioner]

there used to be a time, when you could get into a fight, and not have to worry that the other person would pull a weapon, or that half a dozen of his friends would jump in.

I don't believe this for a second..


On another note..
When people say that chivalry is dead, I usually reply with it is prob. a lot different than you think.

We have fair fights here all the time, they are called debates about fighting

[Starchaser107]

Starchaser kicks NP in the groin and pokes out his eyes, and then swings a pipe in his throat as he falls to the floor a sharp kick to the ribs. Then flees into the darkness.

[norther practitioner]

I was being sarcastic.. sorry.

[Ryu]

Chivalry and bushido did exist in the past. But they were ethical behavioral systems that knights and samurai were supposed to follow so as they did not bring dishonor to their lord, King, etc.

Chivalry and such is a romantic ideal, and has been romanticized in olden books from those eras and afterward. That much can be proven easily.
Just because such a code did exist, doesn't mean everyone followed it. It's a bit like our "rules of war" as well.

Now that that's out of the way,
honor and ethical codes are how one deals with innocent and non threatening people. Honor and ethics are for defending, helping, and protecting innocent and non threatening people.

When someone is intent to hurt you (or someone else), and you need to fight......you have to win. Simply put.
That means that whatever you use to win the fight is fair game....the ethical side of this comes from why you're fighting in the first place.

Example. A home invader is trying to murder an elderly man, and I sneak up behind him and smash him in the skull with a golf club.
I win the fight, the elderly man is no longer in danger, and the "ethical" honor of that fight goes to the fact that I am giving aid to someone in need.

If the same scenario plays out and I try to fight the home invader in a "fair fight" and lose......I die, the elderly man dies, and evil wins out.

Case closed.

Ryu