Mastering Kung Fu

[JohnL]

Hey Moose!

The use of hand to hand combat would fit HFY like a glove. The fact of the matter is that after loosing the war the revolutionest continued fighting a hit and run battle with the Ching. This type of warfare has been the method used by revolutionest throughout history. the american idians, the colonest, the french (WWII), and even the Iraq's have had better success in this type of warfare than the conventional army versus army campaigns.

JohnL

[anerlich]

It's also worth pointing out that the mings and indians both failed ultimately. You could argue about the French, they had a lot of help. Iraq? Too soon to tell.

Vietnam was the one you should be using for your poster child.

Equating HFY and Special Forces? A marketing masterstroke, that'll get the punters in.

[duende]

Actually, it was the common cold (brought by the Spaniards) and the smallpox infested blankets given to them that did the indians in.

Many American Indian tribes actually never surrendered... and still live on the same land they always did... Take the Yaqui's in AZ for example.

But besides all that.... I don't see how a polite discussion between a few MA's can be considered HFY marketing. And whatever point there may have been to your post is lost in your negative hang-ups.

Grendel.... nice profile... Too bad there's not a tree named Bonus Aires...

[anerlich]

I don't see how a polite discussion between a few MA's can be considered HFY marketing.

"Polite discussion"? Must be another thread.

Look, I come from a lineage which has had a long history of shameless marketing. I accept it for what it is. Just check out any Paladin Press or TRS video blurb, or for that matter most American MA sites.

"Special Forces Wing Chun" - from a pure marketing POV this would be a sure attention getter. For chrissake get off your high horse and get a sense of humour.

And whatever point there may have been to your post is lost in your negative hang-ups

There's a psychological phenomenon called "projection". And a saying about pots and kettles.

[yuanfen]

Grendel asks:but french (WWII), are you kidding?
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(Of Course- Claude Rains was rounding up the usual suspects in Casablanca wasn't he? And Paul Henreid(?) and Ingrid Bergman were engaging in "gorilla" warfare in Nick's cafe?--oops- bad history maybe?))
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Duende sez:Actually, it was the common cold (brought by the Spaniards) and the smallpox infested blankets given to them that did the indians in.

Many American Indian tribes actually never surrendered... and still live on the same land they always did... Take the Yaqui's in AZ for example.
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((Dont want to go too far afield---Actually somewhat/considerably more complicated than that...introduction of respiratory diseases and small pox and other health disasters played their role....... but in the forced march of Indian removal (to Oklahoma)
my wifes's tribe lost almost half their full blood population in that disaster... and the Spaniards were not too kind in Florida before that....
the creation of the resevations, the forced allotments---it's a complicated story. Technology played a devastating role--- In the Battle of Horsehoe Bend the large numbers of Creeks killed were mostly felled by bullets- while the few US troops had mostly arrows in them. The Yaqui story is also more complicated... the main home is around Rio Yaqui in Mexico but much migration- partly the result of conflicts with Mexican authorities and troops - the anti tribal side effects of the Mexican revolution.
The Yaquis in Arizona(Old. New Pascua, Barrio Libre, Guadalupe etc) were north of the border at the time of the Gadsden purchase. They were not recognized as a tribe in the US till special legislation in the 70s brought about recogbition. My late wife and i also worked for recognition in supporting the Udall and De Concini bills. We were friends of the then Yaqui chairman Anselmo Valenzuela. The impact of social forces has been devastating for tribal (not just yaquis) health- quite shortened average life spans--stress related alcoholism, the impact of diabetes partly triggered by changes in nutrition. ""History" is not a simple matter whether its the Ming, Ching, Yaquis, Irish and any others.Oversimplification of "history" unfortunately is quite easy))

[Mike Mathews]

Andy Kalish Posted:
Referring solely to HFY oral legend/history, I believe that for troops, the weapons (knives, pole) were trained up front right along with the hands. Decades later, more covert anti-Qing activities (one-on-one fighting?) may have involved more hand training first, but maybe not.

Andy,

Taking into consideration the situation of the time it would make sense to me that there was a need to learn weapons at a very early stage of training.


Regards,

Mike

[anerlich]

Open to interpretation I guess, but I don't see them running the Chinese or Taipei governments.

Haven't seen many US presidents dressed in buckskins and war bonnets either.

Don't misunderstand me, the underdog, guerilla and revolutionary sometimes win. Lenin, Mao Tse-Tung (not a Ming AFAIK), Ho Chi Minh, etc.

FWIW, IMO it's hardly a big jump to assume that soldiers would start with weapons. Only an idiot would participate in infantry warfare barehanded. The pedagogy of teaching open hands first may have begun once the thing went underground, or was enhanced/polluted by spiritual, revolutionary, cultist or other motives, inlcluding the teacher not getting brained or sliced by overeager students or traitors/double agents, or as a mechanism to keep students subservient for longer before they could actually be a real danger to anyone..

This all sounds pretty much like speculation by all concerned. Any hard proof either way?

[anerlich]

Jeez, I misspelt "Mings" and everything. No one want to have a go? Unlike some, I got big shoulders.

BTW the copy of "Mastering Kung Fu" I ordered from Amazon in mid-October finally shipped from the US today. The delay was in Amazon getting the book from the publisher to ship. If anyone else outside the US is sweating on an order, that should give you an indication re waiting time perhaps.

The copy of "Rickson Gracie: Choke" I orgder at the same time arrived on Friday. So I guess I'll be waiting another three weeks approx.

[yuanfen]

3 tries at answering vanished into cyberspace- wrong buttonspushed possibly-- but some notes on what Anerlich sez:
Open to interpretation I guess, but I don't see them running the Chinese or Taipei governments.

((They are but it's a secret. Mao and Chiang had a secret handshake when Sun Yat Sen was alive.. later they hada code using chopstick motions in their pictures:-))

Haven't seen many US presidents dressed in buckskins and war bonnets either.

((It's a secret too. Indians took over the White House. Proof? there is that picture of a smiling Calvin Cooloidge with a Plains Indian war bonnet on))

Don't misunderstand me, the underdog, guerilla and revolutionary sometimes win. Lenin, Mao Tse-Tung (not a Ming AFAIK), Ho Chi Minh, etc.

((They do- Dienbienphu. Sometimes the wins are in limited objectives including survival. One of the proprtionately expensive guerilla warfares the US has faced in the past was with some of the Florida Seminoles---those who refused to move to Oklahoma
in the 1830s.
A small band somrtimes only 200 held off the US Cavalry in South Florida. The nucleus later by population growth are the Florida Seminoles today. Those who moved are in Oklahoma.
Alsoa group of Cheyenes escaped from Oklahoma and foughta guerrila campaign to return to their old area in Wyoming- where they(the Northern Cheyennes) are today.

On the Qing penetration and takeover---one of the best books is the large two volume work by Wakeman on The Great Adventure-
I forget the exact title---should be there in google search.
The Wakeman book is pretty good in portraying the resistance to
the Qing. In the south it was quite disorganized and diverse.
There were peasants . martial artists, local hoods, betrayals, food riots, anti tax protests. And not always clearly good guys versus bad guys.The literati were originally often pro Ming... but many switched out of convenience as literati do.

Of course battlefields produce weapons... but guerillas are used to using what is available --- because they may not have the same kind of factories and production.
Training of the hands and weapons--- sometimes chicken and egg questions-which came first- can be sometimes one sometimes another. Some of the northern styles- even Chen has moves that are outgrowth of the spear- but the relationship in some southern styles including wing chun appear to be different...
yes we can use weapons but lets first train ourselves and the hands-kind of thinking.

FWIW, IMO it's hardly a big jump to assume that soldiers would start with weapons. Only an idiot would participate in infantry warfare barehanded. The pedagogy of teaching open hands first may have begun once the thing went underground,

[yylee]

talking about weapons, here is a picture believed to have been drawn by the group of British who joint the Tai Ping army. See what kind of weapon you can find in the drawing

http://dailynews.dayoo.com/img/2003-...dfc68d2cc6.jpg

F. A. Lindley, one of the British soldiers, wrote a book about his experience in the Tai Ping era. Not sure if anyone here has read it.