FALUN GONG/Falun Dafa

[Juna]

An Independent Investigation Into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China

http://organharvestinvestigation.net/report20060706.htm

[Matthew]

An Independent Investigation Into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China

http://organharvestinvestigation.net/report20060706.htm

Hi Juna,

This was posted at the top of this thread page (in the wiki link). It's disturbing and concerning, but whether or not the "Majority" of the harvested organs are from 'falun gong' practitioners seems to be the claim in question.

Basically their evidence is based on a tiny sample of self-reported cases and quotes from falun gong practitioners. The Kilgour paper seems to exaggerate AND misrepresent the analysis of the UN panel by suggesting "[The UN Panel] conclude[d] that Falun Gong adherents were the most likely source." , when it wasn't a conclusion, but an analysis of very limited self-reported allegations which even CAUTIONED against using it to extrapolate/represent the torture/harvesting occurring.

Again, I'm not disputing the horrible organ harvesting and how awful it is, nor that people are being tortured or mistreated. Here is the source of the figure (bolding my own):

Analysis of communications of the Special Rapporteur
40. The Special Rapporteur recalls that over the last several years his predecessors have received a number of serious allegations related to torture and other forms of ill-treatment in China, which have been submitted to the Government for its comments. He cautions that such information does not necessarily illustrate the state of torture and ill-treatment in a given country, but rather reflects the state of information brought to the attention of the Special Rapporteur. Nevertheless, over a period of time, the number and consistency of the allegations received may be informative.

41. Since 2000, the Special Rapporteur and his predecessors have reported 314 cases of alleged torture to the Government of China. These cases represent well over 1,160 individuals. Over the past five years, the Special Rapporteur has received 52 responses from the Government of China relating to a total of 90 cases.

SOURCE: http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies...006-6-Add6.doc

Then it lists the 66% being Falun Gong practitioners OF THOSE 314 reported allegations. That is, it was majorly falun gong practitioners reporting to the UN that they were being tortured. I'm not calling anyone a liar, just pointing out the evidence being cited, which is being used to extrapolate to the total number of organ harvests.

If we looked at rape statistics for men/women or even within different populations/countries, we would see exaggerated different statistics, which are heavily influenced by willingness to report, perceived likelihood of outcomes of reporting, etc.

[TL;DR] The Kilgour report seems to use this 66% figure, which is based on a very limited sample size of 314 reports, and all of which are self-reports, to conclude that the majority of all China's organs are being harvested from Falun Gong practitioners. This seems to be where the credibility issue is coming from.

[Juna]

Hi Juna,

This was posted at the top of this thread page (in the wiki link). It's disturbing and concerning, but whether or not the "Majority" of the harvested organs are from 'falun gong' practitioners seems to be the claim in question.
.[/B]

Hi Matthew,
this is Revised Report from 2007


BLOODY HARVEST
Revised Report into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of
Falun Gong Practitioners in China
By David Matas, Esq. and Hon. David Kilgour, Esq.
31 January 2007
http://organharvestinvestigation.net...#_Toc160145104

[mawali]

Falun gong/dafa is the Chinese version of Scientology.

Objectively, I don't think so but that is how the discourse has become because of popular support injecting itself into Communist state government.
Communists , as practiced, does not and will never acknowledge by the people, of the people and for the people! Democracy, is slowly becoming like that in USA. who wudda thought, the birthplace of democracy

Falun Gong is targeted because no one dares to object to government persecution of those so targeted by the Central Government!

[curenado]

That's the most horrific thing I've read in a couple weeks anyway. Makes ya wonder about mexico here...

[Matthew]

Hi Matthew,
this is Revised Report from 2007


BLOODY HARVEST
Revised Report into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of
Falun Gong Practitioners in China
By David Matas, Esq. and Hon. David Kilgour, Esq.
31 January 2007
http://organharvestinvestigation.net...#_Toc160145104

Hi Juna,

Irrespective of this "revised report" or the other report linked, both use the same self-reported 314 UN cases as evidence. Here is from your updated link (bolding my own):

Furthermore, the report indicated that 66% of the victims of alleged torture and ill‑treatment in China were Falun Gong practitioners

This is a direct misrepresentation of the data that the UN put out, which was 66% of the small 314-self-reported-torture-claims, were claims from falungong practitioners. 314- self-reported-claims makes up a sample size too small (And for reporting accuracy reasons as well) simply cannot be reliable enough to extrapolate on any large scale, and the UN report directly warned against using that data as such.

So, the data hasn't changed even in your revised link unfortunately, so still no data there to support that the majority of organ harvesting is being done from Falungong practitioners.


--------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Here again from the UN Report that your link cites as it's evidence (bolding my own):

Analysis of communications of the Special Rapporteur
40. The Special Rapporteur recalls that over the last several years his predecessors have received a number of serious allegations related to torture and other forms of ill-treatment in China, which have been submitted to the Government for its comments. He cautions that such information does not necessarily illustrate the state of torture and ill-treatment in a given country, but rather reflects the state of information brought to the attention of the Special Rapporteur. Nevertheless, over a period of time, the number and consistency of the allegations received may be informative.

41. Since 2000, the Special Rapporteur and his predecessors have reported 314 cases of alleged torture to the Government of China. These cases represent well over 1,160 individuals. Over the past five years, the Special Rapporteur has received 52 responses from the Government of China relating to a total of 90 cases.

SOURCE: http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies...006-6-Add6.doc

AGAIN, I am not in any way contesting whether or not organ harvesting is happening, and it is definitely deplorable and sad, but just having a look at the facts that are being presented.

[David Jamieson]

Objectively, I don't think so but that is how the discourse has become because of popular support injecting itself into Communist state government.
Communists , as practiced, does not and will never acknowledge by the people, of the people and for the people! Democracy, is slowly becoming like that in USA. who wudda thought, the birthplace of democracy

Falun Gong is targeted because no one dares to object to government persecution of those so targeted by the Central Government!

Totalitarian/Authoritarian is the model. I don't think there has ever actually been any sort of communist government in the world, although, Cuba does come closest.

America was hardly the birthplace of Democracy.

[bawang]

Falun Gong is targeted because no one dares to object to government persecution of those so targeted by the Central Government!

falun gong was targeted because the senile hermits at kunwu mountain groomed an illiterate moron to be the next emperor

li hongzhi has basically given up and just wants to make money and bang biches

white lotus are moving on to making new "christian" cults

[Juna]

Why is Falun Gong, which upholds the principles of Truthfulness, Compassion, and Tolerance and has been promulgated in over 60 countries worldwide, being persecuted only in China, not anywhere else in the world? In this persecution, what is the relationship between Jiang Zemin and the CCP?

http://www.theepochtimes.com//n3/394...te-falun-gong/

[curenado]

Well probably. When you want to make some good money getting rid of the opposition you don't just say that. You say stupid stuff that's supposed to make it seem ok to do....

[bawang]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Lu...ebel_leader%29

A martial arts master and self-taught physician, Wang taught his followers yoga, meditation, and the ability to fast for very long periods by drinking purified water. His group became known as the "Pure Water Sect", and by 1774 numbered several thousand.

Having told the sect that he was the reincarnation of Maitreya and was destined to become Emperor of China

A group of disenchanted followers alleged at the end of 1994 that the birth date had been correct all along, and that Li had only wanted to align it with the birth date of the historical Buddha Sakyamuni

1999 — On 25, 10 April 000 - 20,000 Falun Gong adherents quietly assemble outside the Central Appeals Office, adjacent to the Zhongnanhai leadership compound in Beijing. Five Falun Gong representatives meet with Premier Zhu Rongji to request official recognition and an end to escalating harassment against the group. Zhu agrees to release the Tianjin practitioners, and assures the representatives that the government does not oppose Falun Gong. The same day however, at the urging of Luo Gan, Communist Party chief Jiang Zemin issues a letter stating his intention to suppress the practice.

There are competing accounts of Li's life that surfaced before and after the suppression of Falun Gong began in July 1999, and there is very little authoritative information on his early life

this guy was groomed to become emperor but fuked it up

[Juna]

Both Jiang Zemin and the CCP Fear Truthfulness, Compassion, and Tolerance
The history of the international communist movement was written with the blood of hundreds of millions of people. Nearly every communist country went through a process similar to the counter-revolutionary suppression by Stalin in the former Soviet Union. Millions or even tens of millions of innocent people were slaughtered.

In the 1990s, the former Soviet Union dissolved, and Eastern Europe went through drastic changes. The communist bloc lost more than half of its territory overnight. The CCP learned from this lesson and realized that stopping suppression and allowing the right to free speech was the equivalent to seeking its own doom.

If people were allowed to express themselves freely, how could the CCP cover up its bloody atrocities? How could it justify its deceptive ideology? If suppression was stopped and people were free of threats and fears, wouldn’t they dare to choose a lifestyle and a belief other than communism? Then, how would the Communist Party maintain the social basis essential to its survival?

The CCP remains essentially the same regardless of any surface changes it might have made. After the June 4 massacre, Jiang Zemin cried out to “eliminate any unstable factors in their embryonic stage.” Extremely afraid, he concluded that he would never give up lying to the public, and he would continue to suppress the people until they were completely immobilized.

During this period, Falun Gong was introduced in China. At first, Falun Gong was regarded by many as a type of qigong[4] with an especially powerful ability to keep people healthy and fit. Later, people gradually realized the essence of Falun Gong was not its five easy exercises. Instead, Falun Gong’s essence is to teach people to become better based upon the principles of truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance.

http://www.theepochtimes.com//n3/394...te-falun-gong/

[curenado]

Ah....no wonder the party carves them up screaming. They're valid ~

[David Jamieson]

Why is Falun Gong, which upholds the principles of Truthfulness, Compassion, and Tolerance and has been promulgated in over 60 countries worldwide, being persecuted only in China, not anywhere else in the world? In this persecution, what is the relationship between Jiang Zemin and the CCP?

http://www.theepochtimes.com//n3/394...te-falun-gong/

Persecuted in China because of their political desires.

I would question the application of those principles you mention. My experience with these folks is that they seem oblivious to anything about the organization/cult, as soon as they realize you know something about Li Hongzhi, they disavow him, especially on the alien god thing and the wheel inside idea and the weird medical claims that are not quantified or qualified except that they were found out due to people dying instead of seeking medical attention.

Just another head bobber cult in so many ways.

But anyway, The communist party in China doesn't care for political competition and that's why the persecution. In a nutshell. It doesn't have anything to do with the lifted wild goose qigong moves and has more to do with Li rising to power and the stopping of that.

[curenado]

I agree, it was not the particular deities or anything so much as any doctrine with humanist or individualist aspects undermines the control/authorituh thing and must give up those organs.