FALUN GONG/Falun Dafa

[David Jamieson]

So how does falun gong/dafa fit in with the politics of China?
What does FG/D have to do with organizations in China that move towards democracy and a way of life that doesn't include persecution of individuals for personal beliefs.

What good does FG/D do for China besides protesting at every opportunity and attempting to take the political system by bits and pieces.

what do they do now to make a difference?

do they run orphanges? Do they have compasion centers? Hospices? Hostels? Do they in anyway make efforts to forward social justice besides focusing on persecution of themselves by a sufficiently demonized bureaucracy?

Do they run co-ops to feed the hungry? Do they take care of the old and sick in FG/D monasteries?

What do they do that reflects the teachings of Buddhism?

How do they act that reflects the teachings of Lao Tze?

You say read the scriptures of Buddhism and Taoism, yet I wonder if you have even read these things. It is no small task to undertake the reading of teh sutras and an even more gargantuan undertaking to actually claim to fully comprehend them. To posture such a statement is silly.

The lifestyle of your leader is contradictory to that which is being sold here as a "good thing". Practice what you preach is the onl;y way to gain credibility, at least here in teh weat. Otherwise you will always be regarded as a sham regardless of what you may think of yourself.

Be the change you want to see in the world, don't push agendas on someone else.

[scholar]

I donot think I have insulted anyone, but if sby feels uncomfortable, I apology to him.

But I donot know if anyone feels he should apologize for insulting Falun Gong and Falun Gong practitioners. Tracing back the thread, everyone can realize what insult really means.

Peace.

That isn't an apology. You are passive-aggressively assigning a condition to me, i.e. "uncomfortable", that is no more accurate than your earlier assessment of my Taijiquan. I am a martial artist, it takes a lot more than simple words on a computer to discomfit me.

No one here insults Falungong and Li Hongzhi unprovoked. Li Hongzhi started the process by insisting his method was superior to any other with outrageous statements like:

"Qigong exercises are for nothing more than healing illness and maintaining health, no matter how you perform them or how much some qigong masters boast about them. They definitely won’t lead you to a high and profound realm. In the past, it was absolutely impossible for anyone—whether he was in some cultivation circle or religious community—to know a Fa this profound and unfathomable. Ordinary qigong only teaches people how to heal themselves and keep healthy, for it doesn’t have Fa to guide people in cultivation." - Li Hongzhi from http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/europe1998a.htm

Practitioners of other methods naturally respond, as we have here, by asking "Superior? How is it superior?" and reminding you that Falungong does not do what martial qigong can do. All we get from you in response is outside links, New Age fuzziness and ad hominem insults. The question is a simple one and I'll bold it for you so that you won't miss it: if your method can't do the job ours does, how is it better than ours? The rough treatment of you, Li and FLG starts when we get answers that dodge that very simple question with the fuzzy logic and insults mentioned above. If you are going to argue, argue, don't whine. Answer the question. Face that FLG has no martial component and therefore can't possibly be better martially than the waigong or neigong of any traditional Chinese style that uses their method for fighting. You can act holy and say "peace" all you want, but you still have to answer the question before you have any hope to be taken seriously here.

[scholar]

This is an interesting article on the subject:

http://www.sydney.indymedia.org.au/f...ticle_id=45038

[Juna]

do they run orphanges? Do they have compasion centers? Hospices? Hostels? Do they in anyway make efforts to forward social justice besides focusing on persecution of themselves by a sufficiently demonized bureaucracy?

Do they run co-ops to feed the hungry? Do they take care of the old and sick in FG/D monasteries?

Those are the task of a normal government, not Falun Dafa practitioners.

[Juna]

What do they do that reflects the teachings of Buddhism?

How do they act that reflects the teachings of Lao Tze? .

Different cultivation methods.

[Juna]

Otherwise you will always be regarded as a sham regardless of what you may think of yourself.

Only those who really know how to cultivate, have the confidence to say, this is the real pathway to enlightenment.

[scholar]

But we aren't talking about Buddhism, Taoism or Christianity, we are talking about Chinese martial arts, so you still are talking around the question. I'll leave the issue whether what Buddha, Jesus or Laozi taught had any bearing on martial arts, for which many examples can be provided, only to point out that Li Hongzhi has claimed to be better than all three of them, too.

Li Hongzhi says that his system is better than any other system, yet Falungong won't help people in a fight. So, again, since Falungong's cultivation isn't for fighting but the following cultivations are how is Falungong better than Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Xingyiquan, Emeiquan or Shaolinquan?

FLG doesn't do what they do, so what makes saying FLG is better at improving human life true? If you can't prove that FLG works for instilling the discipline necessary for me to successfully defend myself, how can you prove that it works better than a Chinese martial art for instilling the discipline to allow me to be a "good" person?

[David Jamieson]

Jesus once told people sth like this: when others hit your left face, give him your right face.

the context of jesus's statement to a great many christian scholars is one of defiance.

it was to defy the roman overlords by showing them that if they inflict violence on the people, the people are to show them that violence will get them nothing by offering the other cheek.

you keep alluding to buddha and lao tze, but you toss them off at the first question asked about how the similarity is there.

compassion for people and care for others is NOT just the realm of governments, in fact, there is a great deal of work done in teh area of social justice by many many groups outside of goivernment circles, worldwide.

FG/D has shown nothing mare than a want to exercises politic will in their activities here and abroad.

Your statements are contradictory to the message of FG/D.

[scholar]

Jesus once told people sth like this: when others hit your left face, give him your right face.

You regard this as teaching how to fight?

So, real enlightened beings, such as Buddha Shakyamuni, Laozi and Jesus would never teach people how to fight, how to hurt others, but teach how to cultivate.

Actually, that is a pretty good description of how Taijiquan works, which you would know if you had actually studied it.

The teachers above, if you could remove the filter of Li Hongzhi's doubletalk, taught how to live one's life to remove suffering, how to defend oneself from the evil in the world by minimising suffering. Martial arts that teach self-defence teach the same thing, it is perfectly obvious. You try to make learning to fight sound evil, but aside from the health and meditative benefits of such a profound physical challenge, martial artists remember that there are butterflies and scorpions in the world. We all have lives that no one else has the right to interrupt.

And you still haven't addressed the question of how a system that doesn't teach physical defence can be considered better than one that doesn't. Saying that self-defence is evil, and therefore martial artists are evil, by implying that they like to hurt others isn't an answer.

I haven't even started pointing out the inconsistencies and lies that Li and FLG perpetrate on their followers (as David and others have above), I just want an answer to one simple question. If someone is attacked, how is FLG better for self defence than martial arts? If it isn't better for that one simple task, then it isn't absolutely better, is it?

[Juna]

the context of jesus's statement to a great many christian scholars is one of defiance.

it was to defy the roman overlords by showing them that if they inflict violence on the people, the people are to show them that violence will get them nothing by offering the other cheek.

That is what you think or some scholars' interpreting. But in the cultivation realm, we have different understanding.

[David Jamieson]

That is what you think or some scholars' interpreting. But in the cultivation realm, we have different understanding.

apparently you do... and your understanding is not exactly in line with what is accepted by those who have spent their lives inthe study of. Tell me, did your leader read the sutras? the bible? the tao te ching?

you compare but fail to site the refrences or the similarity to what you expound upon.

all you keep saying is fg/d is good, you cannot go deeper as to why or how the method makes it good?

your frame of reference is all these things such as other religio-philosophies, but you fail to state a point from fg/d's.

What is the point form version of fg/d's philosophy and how does it differ from teh established methods you keep defering to?

If it is the same as these established methods, how is it any different or better.

Can you frame what fg/d is and what it's purpose and intention is? What is the driving principle(s)?

[scholar]

Those great enlightened beings told people how to cultivate, and achieve the higher levels, not how to reduce suffering in this world.

Umm, have you even read what they taught? Even though you still haven't answered the question (you remember: How is Falungong better than martial arts when it doesn't do the job that martial arts do?) I will rebut your latest pronouncement on what the great teachers taught, so that you may see that I am not mistaken in my characterisation. Human suffering is indeed what they talk about, the personal suffering that the world inflicts on the human heart and how to see it for what it is, thereby removing its ability to afflict us. Without that, we wouldn't need teachers. I don't know what you guys are cultivating, but if it doesn't release us from suffering, what good is it?

I will choose the teachings of Buddha because it is the clearest on the subject for our purposes, explicitly teaching how to recognise and then end suffering and the effects of suffering. I will bold the word so that you cannot possibly miss it:

The Four Noble Truths

The Four Noble Truths (Pali, cattari ariya saccani) are taught in Buddhism as the fundamental insight or enlightenment of Sakyamuni Buddha (the historical Buddha), which led to the formulation of the Buddhist philosophy.

Dukkha: There is suffering and impermanence in life for all beings.

Samudaya: There is a cause for suffering, which is attachment and desire (tanha).

Nirodha: There is a way out of suffering, which is to eliminate attachment and desire.

Magga: There are paths that lead out of suffering, one named: the Noble Eightfold Path.

This outline form is exactly that used by doctors of the Buddha's culture when diagnosing and prescribing for a disease: identify the disease, its cause and then prescribe a cure. Thus the Buddha treats suffering as a "disease" we can confidently expect to cure.

Because of its focus on suffering, Buddhism is often called pessimistic. But since Gautama Buddha presented a cure, Buddhists consider it neither pessimistic nor optimistic but realistic.

The Noble Eightfold Path

1. Right Understanding (or Right View, or Right Perspective) - samma ditthi

"And what, monks, is right understanding? Knowledge with regard to sadness, knowledge with regard to the origination of sadness, knowledge with regard to the stopping of sadness, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of sadness: This, monks, is called right understanding."

2. Right Thought (or Right Intention, or Right Resolve) - samma sankappa

"And what is right thought? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right thought."

3. Right Speech - samma vaca

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech."

4. Right Action - samma kammanta

"And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action."

5. Right Livelihood - samma ajiva

"And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood."

6. Right Effort (or Right Endeavour) - samma vayama

"And what, monks, is right effort?

(i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
(iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen:
This, monks, is called right effort."

7. Right Mindfulness - samma sati

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness?

(i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on (his/her) body in & of itself... ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.
(ii) (He/she) remains focused on feelings in & of themselves...ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.
(iii) (He/she) remains focused on the mind in & of itself...ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.
(iv) (He/she) remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves...ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.
This, monks, is called right mindfulness."

8. Right Concentration - samma samadhi

"And what, monks, is right concentration?

(i) There is the case where a monk...not ardent, quite withdrawn from sensuality, but mindful and alert, enters in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from detachment, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.
(ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration; fixed single-pointed awareness free from directed thought & evaluation; assurance.
(iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana which the Noble Ones declare to be "Equanimous & mindful, (he/she) has a pleasurable abiding."
(iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain...as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress...he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither in pleasure nor in pain.
This, monks, is called right concentration."

As far as I can see, what Li Hongzhi says, his Fa, doesn't agree with items 2, 3, 5 & 6, at least, of the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path. So, one more time, now that I have shown that you have an, erm, unusual understanding yourself of what Buddha, Jesus and Laozi taught, my question still stands unanswered, a question you should expect when you come to a martial arts discussion board to tell martial artists why what you do is absolutely better than what they do:

How is Falungong better than martial arts when it doesn't do the job that martial arts do?

[Juna]

all you keep saying is fg/d is good, you cannot go deeper as to why or how the method makes it good?

your frame of reference is all these things such as other religio-philosophies, but you fail to state a point from fg/d's.

As I post before, if one wants to know what Falun Dafa teaches, he should go and read Falun Dafa's original books.
My understanding is very limited, I do not want to say too much about Falun Dafa's teaching, so I suggest people reading the books by themselves, so they donot need to listen to what I think, that is better.

[David Jamieson]

[QUOTE=Juna]Although you have quoted so much, not a single word from them encourages people to study martial arts to protect themselves, neither a single sentence teaches to learn how to fight to reduce suffering.[QUOTE]

LUKE 22:36
But now," said Jesus, "let the one who has a purse take it, and he who has a bag must do the same. And let him who has no sword sell his outer garment and buy one.

why would jesus advise them to sell their clothes if need be in order to obtain a sword?

Buddha Shakyamuni once had a disciple, who had been very strong and evil, and had killed 999 persons(maybe 99, I donot remember the exact number) before he came to Buddha Sakyamuni, the aim he came to Buddha Sakyamuni was to kill the great Buddha, he had a ring on his neck made of fingers of the victims. This evil murderer tried to stab Buddha using his knife, but he failed no matter how he tried.
After that this person knew Buddha Shakyamuni was not an ordinary person, so he became the disciple of Buddha, not learn how to fight, but how to cultivate. After quite some time, the relatives of the victims knew the murder had become a kind person, and not to kill others anymore, they came to revenge, they threw stones at the cultivator, he didnot fight back, he died.

so, the amish are right? the extreme buddhists that self immoliate are right? the ones who let themselves die are right?

you know, it is because of this aspect of non violence to that extreme in buddhism that has made it be regarded in some senses by many as passive nihilism and in the most fundamentalist of cases, an obssession with passing out of existance which is tantamount to the utter obliteration of the soul.

this is contrary to a great deal of other religio-philosophies, especially those of the west here where it's all about hope and eternal life with the flying spaghetti monster or jesus, or gaia, depending on your proximity to california.

so, you have no understanding of the depth of what it is you've undertaken and yet you claim that our views are shallow.

This doesn't tell you anything?

[scholar]

Dude, you are hopeless. You don't answer questions (about why FLG is better than martial arts for example), you don't acknowledge arguments that show your statements to be wrong (about suffering or Buddha and Jesus teaching people to defend their personal well being, for example) and you continue to stick to repetitive, inane statements followed by "read Zhuan Falun, Zhuan Falun good..."

So, your preaching is lame and ineffective, and you've made yourself look like a drooling, glassy eyed cultist who doesn't give a monkey's butt about anything anyone else but your cowardly "master" says. Don't waste any more of our time, OK? Go home and play with your Li Hongzhi bobble-head dolls...