Mirroring - training both sides

[mantis108]

On the other thread Young Mantis mentioned about not to worry to much in making a technique work with both sides and in all situation.

I agreed with Young Mantis. I don't think it is that important to train both side of the same technique (mirroring). Although it is seems like a good idea to do so, it may not be that productive during the form training phase. Besides in mantis traditions in general, the single moves/numerous postures/Jibenquan already provided an oppotunity to work on simple techniques with both sides. BTW, HK 7 stars' 14 roads fits in this category IMHO. Unless a mantis stylist skips the whole Jibenquan training phase, the right hand forward issue really shouldn't be a concern. Besides your right is the opponent's left which means you are attacking with you power side to his weak side. You should have an advantage not a handicap in that case. Most important of all, and I think Young Mantis said it really well, that forms or rather techniques in forms, are about adaptations. If a mantis stylist has to struggle with making a technique work or fit it in, then it would seem to me that he/she needs to polish the technique more. It would also be a good idea to ponder whether the choice of technique(s) was appropriate.

WHF also addressed this issue in his book. So this issue seems to be of note to mantis stylist through out the ages. Personally, I am a lefty. After years of training the right side, I sometime feels more comfortable with my right then my left. Imagine that you are already strong with your right side. You can go further with it. So to me training the right side serves a great purpose.

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

I encourage my students to train on both sides and we do. I don't do it so much for combat expidency as I do balanced development muscularity and coordination.

This differs greatly from my Wing Chun training which requires near ambidexterity to be effective having a full front facing structure. In fact it begins always on the left side in every exercise just to strengthen what it considers a "weak" side.

Tanglang acknowledges that one has a strong side and should use it. I believe that this is why the sets are structured as they are.

Great topic!

Steve Cottrell

[ninjaboy]

i like to play my sets as a mirror image sometimes to see if i can wrap my mind around the sequence backwards in a meaningful way.

speaking of left vs right, i know where lo gwan yuk found his inspiration to start his version of bak yun tao toe, but, what about his version of bak yun chut dong? is there another form that starts this way that i just haven't seen yet?

now that i'm thinking about it, i don't know of any other sets that start by neutralizing an attack with a rear right hand and attacking with the left as the principle attack (other than the fact that it sets up more wicked principle attacks...).

any thoughts?

cool topic

neil

[ninjaboy]

also, what do you guys feel about left handedness in a system that recommends fighting with your 'strong' side forward? do you teach leftys forms on the other side so they, too, can benefit from this 'rationale'?

i think maybe one should strive to be completely omnidirectional...i dunno. might as well aim high in your practice.

neil

[B.Tunks]

Its not always 'power side forward' in my view. Most things start out with a left hand lead and although a lot of attacks come through with a right hand off a right step, so many end up with a left hand lead off left foot. i believe your hands and feet need to be equally skilled (left and right), and as 108 said, you learn this in your fundamentals.

[mantis108]

Thank you for the inputs. They are all good points.

I believe PM's solution to balance the sides are in the fundamentals as Brendan adeptly put it. That's one phase of PM training IMHO. While forms belong to fundamental training as well, it really is a different phase of the entire training process. forms serves a distinct purpose other than "training". It is training and beyond training. I tend to think of forms as combat interface - lots of window of oppotunity for learning the skills before the rubbers hit the road. They are tools to strip away illusions that we might have about how a fight should go down. Irony is that today it is quite the opposite with all the Wushu BS.

I think Sifu cottrell's observation on the stylistic differences is excellent; however, we would have to bear in mind that Yip Man's Wing Chun has been distilled to the bare essentials. If we examin the form structures of Wing Chun it is IMHO reminiscent of Jibenquan type of material found in PM system. Having said that I must stress the point that it is by no means any suggestion that one style is more sophisticate or superior than the other. It is just different training philosophies.

The complexity of Tanglangquan, I believe is designed in combative form to capture literally our imaginations. I am often in awes to the intelligency of the PM masters.

Warm regards

Robert

[mantisben]

Originally posted by mantis108

...
Although it is seems like a good idea to do so, it may not be that productive during the form training phase.
...

Mantis108

I believe if a PM practicioner could do all of his forms with the same strength, speed, focus, and balance ambidextrously (with both the left and the right sides equally), he would better off than if he could only do it on one side.

[bung bo]

i think it's important to train both sides for mostly coordination and ampidextry, then equal musclarity(even though they all go hand-in-hand). i have gotten way more confident in the use of my left side in fighting in only my 14 months of training. most of the hand drills i've learned have started out right side facing, but you really have to learn to incorporate your whole body fluidly. i learned some drills from Tainan Mantis that started out left side facing, and they felt natural after doing them only 7-10 times. it's also what side is taught first. after doing one side for so long, the other feels really weird for a while.

great topic, Mantis108

[mantisben]

Originally posted by bung bo

...
it's also what side is taught first. after doing one side for so long, the other feels really weird for a while.

great topic, Mantis108

You are ABSOLUTELY right! It is good for your body to train both sides! I think it keeps ya bones and muscles in alignment... After this discussion, I may pick a form, and practice it only on my left side for a while.

[tanglang]

Hi, all..
I was taught to train all forms left and right.. and also held it very important. It was part of our small tests to come into the next level... first we had to practice the form on the right. When it was fluent we took techniques out of the forms ( three or four ) and made what my sifu calls "right-left-roads" of it. Next step was to do the roads as application-roads. By doing this you were finally able to do the whole form on the left also..
But: Though we train it it still feels weird for me because I have more training with the right side also.
But see it like this and then the use and importance is obvious:
How learning of movement works:
first you learn a new movement and you nead all your attention for that, more muscles than you need for the move are tensed because your body has to find out the most efficient and economic use of muscles first. The "little correction-program" in your brain doesn't work already because the movement is new and so: rough-mototic. Then the little programm starts to work, your moves get more fine-motoric..you don't have to think about each small detail anymore..but still it's not perfect. If you can make the movements as fluent as cooking tea in the morning or watering flowers (like someone said in the german board)-that is moving without thinking about it, Bruce Lees and old taoists "emptyness", then your moves are part of the cerebellum plus perfect fine-correction-program- let's say: that perfect, that you don't need any fine-correction any more.( I have to add: fine correction works unknowingly already, too) So how want you be able to react in a fraction of a second on the left side, if the movement doesn't flow out of you, doesn't come as fluent as moves on the right side? And how should they be as efficient as the ones on the right if your muscle-inervation on the left is not so optimized as on your right side? And- if we talk about muscle-inervation: there is another phenomenon called overflow: if you tense a muscle or musclegroup on the right side, there will be a measurable reaction of the same musclegroup on the left side though it's not intended.. just inervation-overflow is the thing. So you allready train your left by doing forms on the right a bit, but the optimum would be having a good left and right and optimize the contralateral side with giving it the" little rest " by the help of Mr. Overflow...... Long text, short intention: I say: train forms on right AND left !