Wing Chun and Meditation?

[wahh]

Hi, this is my first post, and I apoligize if somethign like this has been answered before, or if I sound like an idiot. Sorry.

Okay, so I was wondering about the training method of Wing Chun. Regardless of where one say the origins of Wing Chun are (Shaolin or a fusion of whitecrane and 12 zhuang or any other origin theories) can it be said that there are Buddhist roots in Wing Chun? Assuming there are, is it a reasonable assumption to say that Buddhism has had an influence on Wing Chun?

I'm thinking that if there is, this could this add insight to how we should be practicing. For example, is the aim of practicing the form to develop awareness and/or let go of our ego and ".. takes off his own identity and puts on another".

Obviously different families/people have different ways of practicing, but just wanted to know what you guys think.


Oh by the way, have any of you guys you seen this?
(http://fight.sphosting.com/sainz.html)

What link did you make between Wing Chun Kung Fu and religion?

I have found that Wing Chun has Christian roots. In Leung Jan's time circa 1800's, many European sailors came to China and fought and beat kung fu men. Leung took note of this and revamped Wing Chun with these European methods of fighting. Obviously Europe is predominantly a Christian nation.

[Tom Kagan]

An interesting topic.

Two years ago today, one might say that devout religious observance flew two planes into a building complex across the street from me. However, regardless of which side a person comes down on that argument, I don't think anyone would argue that a Boeing 767 is a tool which was not designed for that purpose and is still only meant for transportation.

Still, is a tool developed by people who happened to be buddhist (so the various stories go) which has as a part of its intrinsic nature the ability to hurt, maim, and kill also have as a part of its heart the underlying buddhist philosophy of those who crafted the tool?

While buddhism is certainly a viable religion, if one were to say it were at the core of Ving Tsun, then the person would have to also have to consider whether a quite different kind of tool developed by people who happened to be Jewish and Christian (some devout in their observance) which has as a part of its intrinsic nature the ability to hurt, maim, and kill also has at its heart the underlying Judeo-Christian philosophy of those who crafted it.

The other tool of which I am contemplating is the hydrogen bomb.

I don't think Judeo-Christian values have anything to do with why nuclear weapons were developed or, at a minimum, has relevance. The ethics of the people who have the ability to use such a tool, however, has everything to do with it regardless of their religious observance.

I don't think Buddhist values have anything to do with why Ving Tsun was developed or, at a minimum, has relevance. The ethics of the people who have the ability to use such a tool, however, has everything to do with it regardless of their religious observance.

[kj]

Originally posted by wahh
I have found that Wing Chun has Christian roots. In Leung Jan's time circa 1800's, many European sailors came to China and fought and beat kung fu men. Leung took note of this and revamped Wing Chun with these European methods of fighting. Obviously Europe is predominantly a Christian nation.

I have heard this theory before. I have never yet seen or heard any substantive, verifiable, or traceable evidence to support it. Conversely, there is lots of evidence which would contradict it. Perhaps some of the quasi-historians in our midst will offer something from their coffers. My best guess is that the theory you reference is traceable to someone's biased or wishful thinking.

I too see similarities between Wing Chun and Christian thought at times; however, it is our human nature to see connections and analogies all over the place, even between very disparate things, and even when there is no "tangible" connection whatsoever. We couldn't enjoy poetry much, otherwise.

I do not in the least buy the notion that Wing Chun's origins lie in Western thought, philosophy or the Christian faith. Just one opinion for the poll, and in case anyone is counting.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
An interesting topic.

Indeed. And an excellent reply.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[anerlich]

Good Responses Tom and KJ.

I think any Buddhist influence on WC came about because it was developed by the Chinese, a largely Buddhist people. There's bits of Taoism and Confucianism in there as well.

Some claim WC is based on Ch'an, and also claim it is based on science, which seems to possibly point to a conflict of mutually exclusive propositions, others disagree.

Meditation (in the title of the thread, but mentioned nowhere else) is a major part of many Buddhist traditions, but it is not exclusively Buddhist either.

While the religions and traditions mentioned are not without merit, I'd like to think both WC and meditation can be practised without having to pick up too much religious dogma or extraneous cultural baggage. Indeed Ch'an and Zen would have us discard all that.

Meditiation purportedly enhances one's activities in daily life, and WC is a part of that for us.

[anerlich]

let go of our ego

Even the Gracies say "leave your ego at the door".

[Phenix]

I'm thinking that if there is, this could this add insight to how we should be practicing. For example, is the aim of practicing the form to develop awareness and/or let go of our ego and ".. takes off his own identity and puts on another". ---


Buddhist or Chan or TCM or Daoist or Hindu.... Generally, There are three technics to play with when it comes to mind or mind/body--------- Awareness, Freeze frame, silence.



It is not based on Chirstianity or Chan because both esoteric Buddhism and Daoism can be found even in today's SLT.

NOT CHAN, Chan Buddhism is the teaching of attain realization to the Factual Reality or Buddha nature and nothing else. It is a Heart Ground method or Heart Ground Dharma Door. Not those claiming Chan Chan Chan , and discard everything type which people think.


Why is it called the letter two clamping Yang Stance? Why is it blindfolded to practice Chi Sau? These two basics in WCK have tell alots. Yang means the involve of Daoist Alchemy or Chakra energy system.

Blindfolded means the training of Awareness Dharma Door. Surangama sutra has a detail description of how to use physical body awareness to attain enlightement. That is the prove of WCK is not based on Chan or Heart Ground Dharma Door. If anyone interested in it.

Chi Sau is a special term doesn't mean 'sticky hand" only. It means the whole body is hands with awareness. One cannot break the Chinese words and interprete it such as Chi Sau ONLY means stiky hand. If that can be done, look at the TaiJi Tui Sou or push hand. is Push hand just about hand? Thus, if one knows the language, that also serve as a signature to identify things. Not to mention, Fujian dialecs involve....

The pay attention to the hand when doing the fuk sau.... ect in SLT can be link to the practice of Freeze Frame similar to the Tibetian buddhist freeze frame or Holding the mantra or Mandala in thier mind....in this case, one hold one's Mind/body hand in the mind. So it is not as simple as Chan Chan Chan, empty, no self.... or qouting Lao Tzu to pretend that is the connection. There is methodology and it is very specific. otherwise, it is just dreaming.

WCK is real high tech stuffs. But, giving an Intel CPU to a stone age people, the best out come might be, he will break the CPu and take the gold wire because it looks gold. the rest of 10 millions transistors design down in garbage.

So, WCK and meditation? practice SLT is meditation via freeframe dharma door.
practice Chi Sau is meditation via awareness dharma door. Sit in the YJKYM is cultivating the Root chakra and crown chakra or Ren Du's medirians...... Note that one who practice YJKYM properly is less likely to get into depression. since the person connect to both earth and heaven....

Just relax and practice, all technology is there. No need to force localization or believing in only certain lineage has this or that secret teaching, or waring monk cloth or chanting matra or qouting Lao tzu or trying to replace one's ego...... just practice, no judgement, no thinking, just do it again and again and relax and let it takes care of itself..... it is similar to using an elevator. just enter it, push the botton and relax... otherwise, the security will come and take one to the mental hospital if one jumping around in the elevator thinking that is the secret of raising the elevator.

As said in the platform sutra: Secret is at your side. which means, there is no secret, only one thinks there might be secret.


As for Christianity teaching of believing in Christ and will be save. That is the same with Buddhism's pureland teaching which if one believe in Amitaba buddha, will be transport to land of bliss --Heaven. Those are more into the religeous believe. and what I post above is "technical" without getting into religeous believe. and we don't have to go into believe stuffs. everyone is free to have thier believe. there is no contradiction. it is similar to a Chan Buddhist monk can go to a Catholic hospital to get help. and a Daoist can ask a Buddhist monk to explain the Prajna state...


May be one might better ask, what is not meditation while one is in the middle of practicing SLT?

as for Leong Jan.... western sailors... well, we have evidents that SLT was created before Leong jan's time..

Just some thought. Believe it or not is up to you.

[wahh]

Thanks for the response Tom, Kahty, Anerlich

I think I may have emphasized the Buddhism part too much in my post. Actually I think what I really meant to do was draw a connection between meditation and Buddhism. As Anerlich pointed out, I didn't really mention meditation except in the topic.

Asuming one meditates to gain awareness of oneself and to lose one's identity and have the ability to assume another, then I believe this is very similar to chi sao. When we chi sao, we concentrate on teh sensitivity and worry about the present and not about the past or anticipate about the future. We are in the present.


The other point about losing one's identity and assuming another comes from another thread about animals in Wing Chun. The thread went on something about how the qualities of animals rather than the techniques are in the form. By qualities of the animal I assume they mean, sneakiness for a snake, the character of no fighting for the crane etc etc etc.
Okay that's great, but how does that relate to this topic? Well a question that popped up in my head while reading the thread was, "Okay so these are the qualities in the system, but how do you assume these qualities as opposed to mere mimicking?". This is analogous to when we start learning, we begin by imitating our Sifus without really thinking and then further along we begin to understand why we do this and that. Thjis si where the losing one's identity comes in because if you can assume the identity of whatever animal, you can in theory understand the qualities of that animal better. Quotesd from To Kill a Mockingbird "You never really know a man until you stand in his shoes and walk around in them."

Boy am I wordy and unclear tonight.

Oh yeah, Tom, after reading your post about:

".. then the person would have to also have to consider whether a quite different kind of tool developed by people who happened to be Jewish and Christian (some devout in their observance) which has as a part of its intrinsic nature the ability to hurt, maim, and kill also has at its heart the underlying Judeo-Christian philosophy of those who crafted it.

The other tool of which I am contemplating is the hydrogen bomb.
"

Immediately after, there is a quote in the Bible I remember reading which is kind of relevant to the above lines you wrote. Of course I want to keep the thread with the topic and not veer into religion because that can get icky. Just wnated to share

Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]

.
Wow that was long (I think someone doens't want to get back to work)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by wahh
Asuming one meditates to gain awareness of oneself and to lose one's identity and have the ability to assume another, then I believe this is very similar to chi sao. When we chi sao, we concentrate on teh sensitivity and worry about the present and not about the past or anticipate about the future. We are in the present.

One don't concentrate on the sensitivity for that create stress and tense after awhile. how long one can hold one's thought or concentration? try to time it and it will amaze you.
Just aware and let it be to transformation -- that is the Mind method believe it or not.

There is a different between Present and living in " this instant or here and now".

Present means there is past and future. As in the Varja Sutra said, the past thought cannot be kept. the future thought cannot be kept. the present thought cannot be kept. This is the evidents for Present is not "this instant or Here and now."


IMHO, Religion is to educate human to not doing silly stuffs, or do silly stuffs .
But "technology" is the thing give us the "beef".
One can argue about is wesite evil or good. but without the technology of the internet. the arguement of evil or good doesn't carry us anywhere.

On the other hand, give a technology to a 3 years old or a religious self-rigteous fanatic is trouble for the world.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by wahh

Asuming one meditates to gain awareness of oneself and to lose one's identity and have the ability to assume another, then I believe this is very similar to chi sao. When we chi sao, we concentrate on teh sensitivity and worry about the present and not about the past or anticipate about the future. We are in the present.

Hi wahh

Also, I think working on the forms while concentrating hard on it and narrowing your focus to what you're doing might be a type of meditation (or working hard at improving any skill for that matter).

Stevo

[wahh]

Thanks for the response phenix!

I think my question has been answered completely and thoroughly.

Now just one more question though,

Blindfolded means the training of Awareness Dharma Door. Surangama sutra has a detail description of how to use physical body awareness to attain enlightement. That is the prove of WCK is not based on Chan or Heart Ground Dharma Door. If anyone interested in it.

So what you are saying is that one can attain enlightenment through Blindfolded ChiSao (via training of the training of Awareness Dharma Door)

[wahh]

--Steveo Wrote--
Also, I think working on the forms while concentrating hard on it and narrowing your focus to what you're doing might be a type of meditation (or working hard at improving any skill for that matter).

I think this is what I do now, but could concentrating and narrowing focus be in a sense tunnel-vision where one can only focus on one movement but forget the rest of your body?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by wahh
Thanks for the response phenix!



So what you are saying is that one can attain enlightenment through Blindfolded ChiSao (via training of the training of Awareness Dharma Door)

When one attained the realization of the one who chi and the one who was chi both don't have a permenent characteristic,
but everything is a flow...non attachment .. beyond time, space, fomulars, me... you... race.....
then one attained the state of prajna. --- "no" self or non duality or unflettered mind.

since I am not the buddha yet, read the surangama sutra if you like to investigate into this issue.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by wahh
--Steveo Wrote--
Also, I think working on the forms while concentrating hard on it and narrowing your focus to what you're doing might be a type of meditation (or working hard at improving any skill for that matter).

I think this is what I do now, but could concentrating and narrowing focus be in a sense tunnel-vision where one can only focus on one movement but forget the rest of your body?

I don't think so - not in the sense that I'm talking of concentration and focus, anyway. I mean the exclusion of thoughts which have nothing to do with the movement you're practising.

What the rest of the body is doing while you're practising an arm movement, for example, is important and integral to the correct and successful performance of that movement (ie correct skeletal alignment, relaxation, the use of only selected muscles, etc), therefore your focus incudes awareness of your whole body, not just what your arm is doing.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by wahh
Hi, this is my first post, and I apoligize if somethign like this has been answered before, or if I sound like an idiot. Sorry.

Hi Wahh,

Everybody starts somewhere. I've been on the Internet since before the web, and I still often sound like an idiot.

Okay, so I was wondering about the training method of Wing Chun. Regardless of where one say the origins of Wing Chun are (Shaolin or a fusion of whitecrane and 12 zhuang or any other origin theories) can it be said that there are Buddhist roots in Wing Chun? Assuming there are, is it a reasonable assumption to say that Buddhism has had an influence on Wing Chun?

I don't believe that Buddhism was something that most of the ancestors/originators were consciously incorporating into their art. Often we overlay our own religious preconceptions on martial arts, hence the claims or adherence to various religions. I've trained in numerous martial arts and only in Japanese karate did my teacher cite Zen aphorisms. In Wing Chun, as Phenix has noted, Buddhism and Daoism were likely present in the cultural mix at the early stages. That doesn't mean it was emphasized in the practice and conveyence of the art. My teacher in the Yip Man line does not teach any religion in class, nor, he says, did he learn any religious aspect to Wing Chun in Yip Man's HK school. Phenix is a Buddhist, but I don't know that it was emphasized in his non-Yip Man lineage.

I'm thinking that if there is, this could this add insight to how we should be practicing. For example, is the aim of practicing the form to develop awareness and/or let go of our ego and ".. takes off his own identity and puts on another".

You might find insight anywhere you look..., or not. Or you might be misled. Often MA teachers wrap themselves in a mantle of Zen (Chan in Chinese) or some such as a way of further mystifying the art and making themselves "special" in some way to their public.

Obviously different families/people have different ways of practicing, but just wanted to know what you guys think.

I think not.

Oh by the way, have any of you guys you seen this?
(http://fight.sphosting.com/sainz.html)

I had not seen this before, but coincidentally, I was looking for Armando's website. I didn't know previously about his Judeo-Christian approach to life. That's fine. But, I admire him for his Wing Chun in this context. He's seems to have exemplary character.

What link did you make between Wing Chun Kung Fu and religion?

It is my opinion that if there ever was a link, say to Ng Mui, a Buddhist monk, it was severed early in Wing Chun history or relegated to nonimportance in Yip Man's line.

I have found that Wing Chun has Christian roots. In Leung Jan's time circa 1800's, many European sailors came to China and fought and beat kung fu men. Leung took note of this and revamped Wing Chun with these European methods of fighting. Obviously Europe is predominantly a Christian nation.

What do you mean you "have found that Wing Chun has Christian roots?" I don't believe this. Although Wing Chun has many Christian proponents, there is nothing inherently Christian about its precepts, nor is it likely that Europeans independently came up with it. Heck, they don't have good Wing Chun even now. LOL! Just stirring the pot.

Regards,