Tradition is What?

[shaolinarab]

interesting, i've noticed that whenever a japanese stylist posts a thread about tradition none of the CMA partake in the discussion. weird. anyway, as a SDer, yes, we also wear the gis to commemorate tradition, the tradition being of our great grandmaster fleeing china for indonesia and then giving an outward japanese appearance to the kung fu he was teaching in order to avoid the discrimination Chinese faced there at the time.

there are some SD schools that prefer to just use the chinese sashes and 'tai chi' uniforms, but most of the schools use the gis for the external curriculum and allow the tai chi outfits for the internal students.

as for names, we learn both chinese and english names, in addition to the japanese terms for a few things.

i strongly believe that is important to learn the original names for techniques because it fosters not only learning of the art's original language, but also provides a medium of communication across borders to discuss and research the history and philosophy behind techniques, without which the practioner would be missing out on a large part of the martial arts.

all the other cultural mannerisms (bow, salute, etc) are preserved because as several have said, we are studying a traditional martial ART (which implies a cultural element), as opposed to some elite/combat fighting systems that just focus on the martial aspects. but even some of them will depict the teachers in (western) military fatigue or pants!

[Starchaser107]

new avatar ...heh heh

on the matter of tradition.
all i have to say is... what do you call it when tradition evolves, because it happens. belt wearing as rank isnt an ancient tradition so to speak but a modern decision

so when you speak of traditions , what do you mean. ancient ones or modern ones...?

[Vash]

SA:

I see your point. But, this ain't really a blanket statement, just my feelings on the arts, for myself, to really feel like I am growing and trully expressing myself in martial arts,I need my art to be a part of my culture. Certainly don't mind having certain obvious roots to Okinawa (just an aside; most toudi/karate students differentiate between Japanese and Okinawan arts, even the different types of karate) as that is where the art came from. But, I am practicing this, and am rather emersed in the American culture.

ST107:

By tradition . . . hoom . . . good point. Darn You!

In my dojo, and my style in general (I guess) we use many Japanese terms, customs, and dress which I find . . . silly.
I am doing nothing more than a disservice to the Japanese language in my horrible mispronunciation of terms, I look and feel uncomfortable in the Gi (top, at least) and the culture recieves a wound every time I bow facing an opponent.

I feel I'm repeating myself, as I really don't have a whole lot to say on the subject. I am most certainly saying "bad" to those martial arts practitioners who use the customs of their art's origin, but it ain't gonna fly for me. This is a part of me, and though it came from another country, so did just about every thing else in this d@mn nation. For me, the art is in the understanding and expansion of the self. It's hard enough for a man to be honest with someone else; I don't wish to add any more difficulty in being honest with myself.

[/overanalyzing]

[blooming lotus]

kg

very nicely put. that is exacetly how I see it and why I have only yesterday arrived in China (cma being point of study)

It absolutely goes without saying that to shirk the cultural aspect of your ma you are also shirking wholistic understanding of that art, as in how and why it was developed progressively,

from what historical sociological objective and perspective


.....without which you really have no idea what the hell they are really describing ( which is why I and many other traditional cma practioners consider non-internal art practice incomplete and comparitively ineffective)

[Kempo Guy]

Vash,

Thanks for the kudos. I had a few days to think about my response...

As for your comments: Were I to start my own school today (thank God I can't, don't have to) I'd require comfortable workout clothes, belt ranks could be worn, not necessary, no bowing in/out, no counting in Japanese/Okinawan, no bowing at beginning/end of kata, minimum use of foreign terms.

I know where you are coming from. However, if you were not change these things, i.e. taking out the cultural components of the art, I would no longer call it Karate/Toudi, but rather call it "Vash's combative concepts" or whatever...

You also said:

For me, the art is in the understanding and expansion of the self.

I agree completely. I think someone would be hardpressed to say they study old Japanese MA (let's say swordsmanship for this example) for self-defense.

FWIW, I personally study these arts for a couple of reasons, one of them being what the Japanese call "Ningen Keisei", character building. The main principle being perseverance, i.e. never giving up even when discouraged. So in essence, your training is about unceasing training... How you practice the art rather than what one practices, is the primary purpose of training.


Starchaser107,
I'm of the understanding that the art evolves, not necessarily tradition. In this case, tradition means that there is a cultural continuity in customs, social attitudes as well as the technical and linguistic aspects of (your) chosen art, whether it's Asian, European or a Russian art...

I agree with you on the belt wearing issue (along with the Dan/Kyu system) and that it's not an 'ancient' tradition. As you know it is something Jigoro Kano used as part of his educational approach of teaching his newly created art, Judo. And I think the American culture has added to this by creating a plethora of colors and 'stripes' in true "commercial spirit".

As an example, one of the arts I study has a direct traceable lineage of almost 400 years (it was founded in 1615). The art has changed slightly over the years in that there have been components added into the system, which was not part of the teachings of the founder. However, these changes have been documented and taught with the understanding that it was not part of the original teachings...


blooming lotus,
Thanks. I agree with you completely! I also spent some time in Asia studying MA (primarily Japan) and also went to Taiwan on a couple of occasions to train in Neijia.

One of the primary reasons for me taking up the practice of traditional Japanese MA was based on my interest in Hoplology, the study of the evolution and development of human combative behavior.

BTW, where in China are staying? I'll be going over to Shanghai in January for a short trip.


Sorry for the long post everyone!
KG

[Starchaser107]

Vash,
also I can't really comment on the "uniform" for CMA practicioners, we don't really have a Gi problem so to speak. Our uniform fot those who still dont know is traditional chinese clothing, cause thats what people used to train in back then. You'll find kungfu schools tending to have a T-shirt/Tank Top, and sweat pants type of vibe, which is really comfortable I might add, so I have no problem with it. and you will also find the traditional chinese clothes that are referred to as "silk pajamas" by some , also comfortable , but , I feel wierd as a black man walking among chinese dressed like that if i'm in public . j/k.
Anyways I think Gi's are cool but hey hthats just my opinion and I've never worn one.

Another Question 4 u :

If you want to omit so much of the japanese culture from your karate why not just do american kickboxing? or do you really like forms that much?

[Vash]

KG:

. . . why not call it "Vash's combative concepts" or whatever

I think I would make an obvious name change, but nothing drastic. Probably along the lines of Isshinryu Boxing or some such. As my opinion stands now, most of the Japanese linguistic and cultural elements I'd probably drop, as they do nothing for the martial learning. I'm not of the mind to start my own style. Aside from the cultural things, I'd only be changing the curriculum and training methods. Natural progression of a combative art, or art in general 'swhat I think.

For character building, the workout itself should do for discipline and perserverance what the cultural aspects are (I guess) intended to do. I'm not of the mind of making whomever I work out with a well-disciplined fighter. That's up to the practitioner.

ST107:

Why not do American Kickboxing? Well, I'm not as durable as most of those guys for one. Besides, I like the fluidity and adaptability of Isshinryu. Nothing really which can't be applied, given the right circumstances.

Please remember, these are the words of a man on the gimp.
Not currently the most dilligent of training men in the world.

[Vash]

On second thought, I may just start my own style . . . on the INTERNET! I shall be Dai Soke/Da Shifu of Isshindo Saolim Gong Fu! It has it's roots in the ancient art of Forum-Fu!

200 Posts, Bizzatch! Pimp on It!!!

[Laughing Cow]

Vash.

For me tradition is very important, it helps me understand a lot of things.

If you really want to understand something away from your culture you need to get involved into the tradition and culture of what you are studying.

I used to think that the I-Dan ranking system was a bunch of crappola, till I met and got to know the japanese culture.

Same thing with the inner door students in CMA, it totally makes sense when seen in context with the culture.

Same way with learning a foreign language, you can spend a few years at Uni learning it. First time you are in a native environment and need to rely on it you will scratch your head and curse your inability to use it.

Tradition is important as it is part of everything that we do, may it be carving a thanksgiving turkey, or whatever.

Take the tradition away and all you got left is a physical action (ergo carving a turkey), but you lost the "why" of it.

So if I as a non-US guy want to understand thanksgiving I need to study the culture and history behind it.
If I don't do that I will follow a custom I don't understand and the action has lost it's true meaning.

I got a completely different view on CMA & JMA after having lived in asia for a few years.

Just rambling.

[Vash]

LC:

Good point.

But, for me, just because I would not practice certain aspects of the culture from which my martial art came, does not mean I will lack a fundamental understanding of the art. How could it? There are only so many ways to punch, to kick.

I do not understand how a culture which produces a martial art has the only way of "truly" understanding said art. If I practice an art which originated in Okinawa using American cultural aspects such as no Gi, no belts,, minimum of Japanese lexicon, aside from the culture, what have I lost? I still have the kata.

To find my meaning while this virus is still staring at me from my computer, I will site the Okinawan martial artists who developed Toudi. The had an indiginous art, and it was molded with certain styles of Chinese Kung Fu. Some of these early masters went to China to study, yet when they returned to Okinawa, they taught in an Okinawan cultural fashion. H. Now, did they lose something of the art? Yeah, it was different, adapted to fit there understanding of fighting.. It is not that they knew any more or les than the Chinese martial artists, they just went about it in a different way.

How is that any different from a modern-day martial artist teaching his style in a non-Japanese fashion?

Just a few morning thoughts. Breakfast time.

[Laughing Cow]

Vash.

To a certain degree you are right.

But those okinawans did NOT claim to teach a Chinese MA, the same way Funakoshi did not claim to teach an okinawan art.

Certain aspects and insights will always be lost when an art is transplanted into a new surrounding, which will naturally differ depending on the new location/culture.

Simply look at the debates if asian MA are involved or not with religion.
Many japanese practice BOTH buddhist & shinto rituals and get married in a "christian" ceremony and it is not a problem or contradiction of either faith for them.

If you transplant a JMA into another setting call it kempo or similar to differentiate it from the source.
Example:
Shorinshi Kempo is bassically shaolin kungfu with "religious" & japanese trappings(Dogi, Ranks, etc). Why is it called a religion, because they can get a tax-break because of it.

Is it Shaolin Kung Fu no not any longer, is it a JMA no it isn't.

Japanese use "kempo" do identify arts that still acknowledge their chinese roots, many JMA used to be kempo-arts.

Hence, lets say Chen Tai Ji Quan is often refered to as Tai Kyoku Kempo, whereas Tai Kyoku Ken is often used to refer to "health" orientated or japanised flavours of Tai Ji Quan.

A friend of mine was told that his art qualified as Koryu art as they still taught the martial application, even though it was a Chinese MA.

Confused yet??

Even most japanese can't understand it either as they have lost/forgotten a lot of traditions and roots.

As for not truly understanding an "art", or similar.

I will NEVER understand what it means to be an American, the same way you will NEVER understand what it means to be british, muslim or whatever.

There are aspects to anything you cannot teach or learn, you can try to understand them but you will never truly know or be part of them.

You can live for 50 or 60 years in China and some aspects of chinese life and culture will always evade you.

Rant over.

[Laughing Cow]

Forgot one example:

Tell a Chinese or Japanese to use Qi or Ki during an IMA lesson and he will never think twice or question what it is or if it even exists.

The concept is an integral part of their culture, the same way I doubt that you will see many Japanese issue a Ki-Ai the same way it is done in US competitions.

The Ki-Ai is a perfect example of a totally misunderstood concept by most westerners that practice JMA, in reality it is closer to CMA and internal methods.

Cheers.

[Vash]

Gotcha.

Were I to teach (and again, thankfully I am too young and a bit too crippled) I would be claiming to teach an Okinawan-based art, not a purely Okinawan thing.

It's evolution, baby, Yeah!

[Kempo Guy]

Vash,
Although LC did a pretty good job commenting on your thoughts. I'd like to add some of my own thoughts on this subject.

just because I would not practice certain aspects of the culture from which my martial art came, does not mean I will lack a fundamental understanding of the art. How could it? There are only so many ways to punch, to kick.

You are right, the body only moves in so many ways. And proper biomechanics can only be taught in one fashion. I do however feel strongly that there are many cultural implications in terms of why something is taught a certain way as well as in terms of attitude/behavior during combat.

You may know the outer forms (in terms of kata and punching & kicking) but may loose something in the 'translation'. I think evolution of an art is fine (although I may not agree with most of what I've seen as evolution), but make sure you distinguish it from the "original"...

Some of these early masters went to China to study, yet when they returned to Okinawa, they taught in an Okinawan cultural fashion

Remember that the Okinawan Islands were heavily influenced by the Chinese. When the the Chinese arts (Kenfat) were transplanted to the Ryukyu archipelago the Chinese influence were much stronger than the Japanese... Having said that, the gi and the Japanese attitude toward training were introduced after the Meiji restoration when the attitude of "Yamato damashii" (Japanese spirit) was very strong. So these things were not originally introduced by the Okinawan people.

KG

[Vash]

KG:

Again, very thought provoking. Here's some thought that got provoked (I'm a poet, didn't know it)

What aspects of the kata, the art in general, would I be losing by not incorporating the Japanese/Okinawan influences into my teaching? Being an extreme novice here, with only 3 years in this art, I seem to be at a loss as to the behavioral influences the culture had on the art.

As an aside, would it be closer to the Okinawan roots to train as the Okinawans did, ie no formal wear, ranking, et al? Or would that be reverting to the time before the founding of Isshinryu, therefore nullifying the whole get-back-to-the-origin idea?

D@mn interesting conversation, if I say so myself. Thanks to the participants. Let's keep this stuff up.