How much of your style can be discarded and still be your style?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vash


-I guess. I can see how different translations of names could -quickly devolve. But, I'm never, NEVER going to pronounce
-'Hije no Ato Tsuki' right. **** that ****.



I think I'm just a non-strict class kinda guy. I like INformality. I'm not overly interested in furthering myself as a moral person, improving my discipline (like being a lazy-ass ******* [only train {when not on the gimp} 12-13 hours a week]), or broadening my awareness of other cultures. That's what college's for.
I'm there for because I love martial arts. An' having a goal to work for in the weight room has its benefits.

Anyway, peace out.

I'm with you on that. I like informality also. Enter the gym, train hard, learn, go home. Plain and simple. But in some cases, discipline is necessary. You have people who cause interruptions in the class, have bad attitudes, etc. These are things that compromise everyone's ability to learn.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Terminology aside, I think everything can go - except the principles of the style.

I am with SevenStar here, the principles and the adherance to them is what makes a style.

Look at the different flavours of TJQ, neither is better or more correct as long as you keep to the common principles.

Interestingly enough we had a FREE Qi-Gong lessons yesterday, where teacher talked about the different TJQ and IMA styles, their relations, etc and we practiced exercises from a variety of styles.

Xing Yi, Sun/Yang/Chen/Chan/Wu tai chi. The teacher decided on 3 moves that are common and showed us the differences. The few of us that studied 2 or more TJQ/IMA styles knew a lot of those moves already.

It doesn't matter if the move is called "Graps the sparrows Tail", "Stroke the peachocks tail", their outward appearances or whatever the same jings are contained and trained.

Many styles share the same move/posture and tech, this doesn't make them related or similar.

As for bowing and similar that I think depends on your Sifu NOT on your style.

[No_Know]

For the most part, you can't shake a ghosts hand. Bows or salutes are to the altar too. For the most part, you can't shake a ghosts hand.

Shaking hands to martial artists is kind of asking to be submitted with a small joint lock at least to start.

In the military you would shake your Sergeant's hand and not ever salute a superior officer because your too proud or some such pride ((being an) a s (s) related)?

The French shake hands with everyone when greeting and leaving. Once-upon a time in small groups at least.

Saluting seems faster. And keeps a safe distance. More efficient than you quick-to-speak handshake.

But then you don't seem to require Respect in your instruction.

Let's make you lethal without giving you a sense of respecting others. Chief concept.

"But, I say "low-block, reverse punch," someone's gonna try an' eat my ass because a low block does **** for a kick . . . or something."

Ummm.?. Then try not being Completely Stupid and perhaps use the low block when they do a shanking type stab/punch angled uppercut to your ribs.

Some Can kick to your ribs and above. A common method is a sweeping kick like Muay Thai. High enough, a low block (with the arm) is not lame. If they kick out of the range (lower) of a low block (with the arm), then move their target. Hit them while they are attacking And you are avoiding. Or you might get lame.

Just because you get a technique does not mean apply it every situation.

I can see No_Knowing what to do but being aware that you have a supposed Authentic technique.

Washington, DC seemed to used to have a theatre stage type place near the Washington Monument. A guy was practicing some Martial-artsie thing (hard Karate type I might have thought). There was talk and the now dead associate and myself were to try to get this older guy (late twenties, early thirties). We were all on the stage and he took a defensive posture trying to keep an eye on both of us. I had just started Kung-Fu class and what was appropriate that I got from my beginner to the School database was Bow-and-Arrow stance. It was good defense And the guy shifted position. I was Stuck! I couldn't face him where to which he moved. What now? Oh yes! There was a transition to another Bow-and-Arrow stance. Ummm? How'd that go? I wasn't conciously recalling. I ended up adapting this useful techniqe as appropriately as I understood. I would shift my rear foot/leg and virtually was pivoting to keep him in front of me. If I moved from that spot I did it Keeping the same leg forward. It was pitiful(sad)/comical

He smiled. I took it as he recognized that I had training and found it cute that I didn't learn further than the stance or didn't learn the transition. It was really cute.

[David Jamieson]

Well, there are styles that are practiced now that are named the same but clearly are not taught, delivered or performed in teh same way.

What's in a name anyway? How much stuff is just called "shaolin" for instance? How many different ways are there to do teh forms of wing chun or Hung Gar?

Why is there several different black tiger styles? etc etc.

There are plenty of techniques and movements included in a lot of martial arts that in truth have no meaning and little applicative quality. Just fancy junk, really useless for tactics in reality.

THere are also unusual tactics and techs that are so hard to understand and apply that they still are in systems, but people don't know what the heck they are lol.

Styles get changed all the time, there are reformations that occur on a generational basis which each and every line of new disseminators of the style.

I can only think of 1 or 2 styles that are consistent with the outlay of knowledge in the land of Kungfu.

Karate , even shotokan is taught differently from one org to the next.

There simply is no standardization with very few exceptions. Those few exceptions are the very traditional and time honoured systems.

It's amazing though how some styles are named the same, but no two pracs perform the sets in the same way or sequence. The sets being the signatures of a "style".

Makes ya wonder just what percentage of all this stuff is bogus.

caveat emporum kiddies

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by No_Know
Since eveything in ones style is that style, whatever is left is still that style. And whatever you throw away is that style.~

General concept.

Well said, No_Know. Beautiful.

[Vash]

Originally posted by No_Know
For the most part, you can't shake a ghosts hand. Bows or salutes are to the altar too. For the most part, you can't shake a ghosts hand.

Good. Ghosts give me the willies. An' as far as my ancestors, predecessors, tax men, whatever, are concerned . . . they shouldn't be. Being a Christian, I'm not overly concerned what dead men and women think of me shaking someone's hand.
In my dojo, we're taught to bow in kata and in sparring facing our opponent. That's a Hollywood idea, yet it's been passed on to my sensei as tradition. Tell me how that's beneficial.
Oh, yes . . . p*ss on Casper.

[B}Shaking hands to martial artists is kind of asking to be submitted with a small joint lock at least to start.[/b]

If I'm shaking someone's hand and they put me in a joint lock, that's time for an ass-whuppin. Where is the "honor" (or the realistic chances of this happening in a controlled environment [or the real world]) in that? Next question.

In the military you would shake your Sergeant's hand and not ever salute a superior officer because your too proud or some such pride ((being an) a s (s) related)?

I am NOT a military man. Never will be. Have the utmost respect for these guys, especially since my best friend is in the National Guard, but I'm scared sh*tless of that kinda service. MA INSTRUCTION is not, to my understanding, to be a MILITARILY-ORGANIZED AFFAIR. That's discipline, ad nauseum.

The French shake hands with everyone when greeting and leaving. Once-upon a time in small groups at least.

And? i'm half Cajun.

Saluting seems faster. And keeps a safe distance. More efficient than you quick-to-speak handshake.

Once again, who's gonna get into a bad sit-chi-a-shun during a f*cking hand shake?

But then you don't seem to require Respect in your instruction.

What does any of that have to do with respect? Sounds more like paying homage to someone in place of seeing him/her as an equal. As for Sensei, Sifu, instructor, they are in fact mere mortals, no matter how bad-a$$ they are.

Let's make you lethal without giving you a sense of respecting others. Chief concept.

See above.

"But, I say "low-block, reverse punch," someone's gonna try an' eat my ass because a low block does **** for a kick . . . or something."

Ummm.?. Then try not being Completely Stupid and perhaps use the low block when they do a shanking type stab/punch angled uppercut to your ribs.



Some Can kick to your ribs and above. A common method is a sweeping kick like Muay Thai. High enough, a low block (with the arm) is not lame. If they kick out of the range (lower) of a low block (with the arm), then move their target. Hit them while they are attacking And you are avoiding. Or you might get lame.

Just because you get a technique does not mean apply it every situation.
A matter of poor clarification on my part. I was giving this technique as an example of how translation (which I favor) can cause problems. And in my dojo, this technique is often seen as a blunt-force stoppage of a round house shin kick. Not a good idea in my opinion.

I can see No_Knowing what to do but being aware that you have a supposed Authentic technique.

Washington, DC seemed to used to have a theatre stage type place near the Washington Monument. A guy was practicing some Martial-artsie thing (hard Karate type I might have thought). There was talk and the now dead associate and myself were to try to get this older guy (late twenties, early thirties). We were all on the stage and he took a defensive posture trying to keep an eye on both of us. I had just started Kung-Fu class and what was appropriate that I got from my beginner to the School database was Bow-and-Arrow stance. It was good defense And the guy shifted position. I was Stuck! I couldn't face him where to which he moved. What now? Oh yes! There was a transition to another Bow-and-Arrow stance. Ummm? How'd that go? I wasn't conciously recalling. I ended up adapting this useful techniqe as appropriately as I understood. I would shift my rear foot/leg and virtually was pivoting to keep him in front of me. If I moved from that spot I did it Keeping the same leg forward. It was pitiful(sad)/comical

He smiled. I took it as he recognized that I had training and found it cute that I didn't learn further than the stance or didn't learn the transition. It was really cute.

Okay. Whatever, dude.

Time for speech class. YEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

[Budokan]

Rogue,
I was thinking more of the basics and not the kata. Kata is only an application of basics, as you well know. I would only count the basic moves and techniques of a style in regards to this question, not the kata that are derived therefrom.

[rogue]

I'll agree with that Budokan. I've come around to the idea that if the attributes of the style aren't evident in the basics then there may be too much fluff in the training. Of course different arts have a different idea of basics, some people may think push hands is advanced but there guys who start training it from day one as a basic.

[KC Elbows]

For what we practice, I'd say all of it could go except the core internal form and the spear set. All the other forms are recent additions, externalized applications from off of the internal set. Some schools have already done this paring away: one practices three of the five externalized forms, one practices four of the five. Ultimately, I don't think I'll teach any of the external forms.

The internal form has all the movements, all the applications, all the chi kungs, all the fa jings, etc. The spear set I'd keep because of it's clear influence on the internal set. Sticky hands would probably have to stay as well. I suppose you could break the form down to it's requisite movements and chi kungs, but then, it'd be quicker to learn the form as a continuous thing than each move independently. Sometimes the transitions make the power generation more obvious.

Good topic.

[No_Know]

"Being a Christian, I'm not overly concerned what dead men and women think of me shaking someone's hand."

Christian--following the ways of Jesus Christ of Nazareth--currently dead-ish perhaps Holy Ghost. Guided with a book whose last living author died more than five hundred years ago.

"In my dojo, we're taught to bow in kata and in sparring facing our opponent. That's a Hollywood idea, yet it's been passed on to my sensei as tradition."

If you know it's a Hollywood idea where did they get that idea? And What is your credibility to know where Hollywood thinks...

"Tell me how that's beneficial."

Since your concept is not necessarily valid much less sound. I dare not try to validate your possible misconception.

"What does any of that have to do with respect? Sounds more like paying homage to someone in place of seeing him/her as an equal. As for Sensei, Sifu, instructor, they are in fact mere mortals, no matter how bad-a$$ they are."

There is more to life than you know. There is more to getting- done than doing.

I No_Know.

[omarthefish]

KC Elbows post just made me stop and think how ironic it is to me that it seems like it's the internal arts that are the most flexible in their thinking. Hm. I thought it was supposed to be the other way. With the internal style I'm most familiar with, Bagua, I'd say you could drop pretty **** near everything but the circle walking....I have.....and still call it Bagua. With Yi-Quan all you need is Zhan Zhuang and with Hsing Yi, you could probably get a way with only practicing Pi Quan. It's with the relatively external stuff I have to stretch my brain a bit more to try and think of what defines them as a style.

[Vash]

Originally posted by No_Know
"Being a Christian, I'm not overly concerned what dead men and women think of me shaking someone's hand."

Christian--following the ways of Jesus Christ of Nazareth--currently dead-ish perhaps Holy Ghost. Guided with a book whose last living author died more than five hundred years ago.

Well, in the Christian religion, Jesus did indeed die, but got bored with it, came back, wen't on to Heaven. Don't want to get into a theological discussion, as we are on topic of MA traditions. If there be ghosts in MA, they need an @$$ whuppin.


"In my dojo, we're taught to bow in kata and in sparring facing our opponent. That's a Hollywood idea, yet it's been passed on to my sensei as tradition."

If you know it's a Hollywood idea where did they get that idea? And What is your credibility to know where Hollywood thinks...

"Tell me how that's beneficial."

Since your concept is not necessarily valid much less sound. I dare not try to validate your possible misconception.

WTF? Of the Japanese and Okinawan (okay, one Okinawan) karatedo and toudijutsu students I've had the pleasure of meeting, none had EVER heard of this type of bow, outside of the 'States and the movies. As for honor in this move, where is it? If you gotta keep tabs on someone IN CLASS so they don't bust your grill, you're in either a poorly run school, or working with a dumb ass partner.



"What does any of that have to do with respect? Sounds more like paying homage to someone in place of seeing him/her as an equal. As for Sensei, Sifu, instructor, they are in fact mere mortals, no matter how bad-a$$ they are."

There is more to life than you know. There is more to getting- done than doing.

Again, Double-You to the Tee to the Eff? There is indeed more to life than I know, but telling me that does **** for me knowing what the above-mentioned modern/traditionalist stuff does for my ability to defend myself.

I No_Know. [/B]

[No_Know]

You call them bows. I heard of them as salutes and bows would be from Japanese traditions. Because the Chinese don't seem to bow in School. General rule seems to be the Chinese salute fist and palm, or prayer hands, the Japanese bow.

If your people defend their informality O.K. if they claim it's only in movies or US from movies, O.K.

Sometime it says hello. Sometimes it says you are my senior and I respect your advice. Sometimes it says I acknowledge my loyalty to what your instruction (because I would like to learn)...

What Humility can do for you in fighting...it might keep you from talking too much or saying the wrong things and get people irritated with your arrogance or ...pretty much it keeps you from people not liking you more than ones natural unlikeableness.

When you are humble you night could learn more because they want to helpyou if you are respectful, but hesitant to give you what they worked to learn if you are not humble or are not showing common traditions of respect, respect those older than you...respect your teachers, respect your parents...

Some touch the brim of their hat/cap to something orother the other person. I understood it to be a way of respecting. Some will nod. Some smile (which suggest something along the l=ines of I hope you had a good day/I had a rough day too/ I hope that you feel better...)

A lot of communication with small things--a smile, a nod a handshake, a tip of the hat, a salute...

The palm and fist salute is a defense also an attack simultaneous ish actually. Do you attack with the salute? Not necessarily. But the option is there.

Could you hurt people? I take it yes. But you theoretically do not just because you can.

Some things cannot properly be explained except by ecperiencing ing it first-hand.

If you don't know Oh well. If you find out, good for you. If you don't care. big wup. Be well and I hope speech class went well and goes well for you, one called Vash.

11 53 p.m. 17 September 2003 A

[Vash]

Originally posted by No_Know
You call them bows. I heard of them as salutes and bows would be from Japanese traditions. Because the Chinese don't seem to bow in School. General rule seems to be the Chinese salute fist and palm, or prayer hands, the Japanese bow.

If your people defend their informality O.K. if they claim it's only in movies or US from movies, O.K.

We don't say it's informal. I am the exception at my school. I have not voiced my opinions to my sensei, mostly because I've been unable to attend class 'cause I was stupid and tried to work through a broken rib.

Sometime it says hello. Sometimes it says you are my senior and I respect your advice. Sometimes it says I acknowledge my loyalty to what your instruction (because I would like to learn)...

What Humility can do for you in fighting...it might keep you from talking too much or saying the wrong things and get people irritated with your arrogance or ...pretty much it keeps you from people not liking you more than ones natural unlikeableness.

When you are humble you night could learn more because they want to helpyou if you are respectful, but hesitant to give you what they worked to learn if you are not humble or are not showing common traditions of respect, respect those older than you...respect your teachers, respect your parents...

Some touch the brim of their hat/cap to something orother the other person. I understood it to be a way of respecting. Some will nod. Some smile (which suggest something along the l=ines of I hope you had a good day/I had a rough day too/ I hope that you feel better...)

A lot of communication with small things--a smile, a nod a handshake, a tip of the hat, a salute...

Exactly. I prefer to express respect in a way that is familiar and honest to me. That is a part of my culture. That is what I've been doing for a while.

The palm and fist salute is a defense also an attack simultaneous ish actually. Do you attack with the salute? Not necessarily. But the option is there.

Could you hurt people? I take it yes. But you theoretically do not just because you can.

I do martial arts for the love of it. I have no urge to hurt people. Lessen' they come into Hollywood Video an' act the fool. Then they need a good cuttin.

Some things cannot properly be explained except by ecperiencing ing it first-hand.

If you don't know Oh well. If you find out, good for you. If you don't care. big wup. Be well and I hope speech class went well and goes well for you, one called Vash.

Peace out. Be cool.
11 53 p.m. 17 September 2003 A

[omarthefish]

I read a really interesting book by this Chinese scholar from the early 20th century called, "The Art Of Living". One of the chapters is basically just about how obnoxious this western practice of "the handshake" is. He goes on about how pretentious it is and how it always seems to become some sort of alpha male determination contest. He never knows how hard to squeeze. Too hard, you come off as rude and arrogant. To soft andyour a pansy... Freaking stupid western customs. "Why can't they just make do with a simple bow like we do", he says. Much more respectable and not nearly so invasive.

I'm not making this up and the book was an earnest critique of western and Chinese culture, not a satire.