paulie zink and the tai shing pek kwar family conflict

[David Jamieson]

I_S-

maybe...maybe not.

For instance, did Chan approach Zink personally and cross hands?

I never heard anything like that, what i did notice was that Chan came to the west, set up shop and set out to destroy any competition.

At least, that's how it appeared in print and on his site.

Also, what if the issue is a schism/politcal one in regards to Cho Chat? Maybe Cho Chat did learn in that lineage? Chan is teh only one who has stepped forward and decried it so far.

I mean it's all speculation. And it doesn't speak to either guys skills or credibility except that one does not like the other. Zink hasn't said anything really at his site or elsewhere so far.

It would be interesting for this to be settled in such a way that we could all know who teh monkey king is instead of the evasive one (zink) or the overt complainer (Chan)

anyway...

[iron_silk]

well given how loud Chan is crying doesn't he make himself the bigger target if he was lying.

Place this in mind though...even if Paul was false
a) maybe his art can be used to fight anyway despite false claims
b) even if Chan was right...being right doesn't make an individual any less of a complainer...it just makes him a RIGHT cry baby instead of a wrong one

Right or wrong doesn't necessarily tie directly to fighting ability. A person with superior fighting skills for his own reasons lies about everything he is and other such. Well he still would be wrong even if he could win every fight thrown at him b/c he lied.

In anycase this can go on forever.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
really? nothing but hearsay I am reading.

It is not hearsay. Contact the authentic line of Tai Shing Pek Qwar in Canada: http://tspk.com/english/index.htm . Here is their take on Zink: http://tspk.com/english/fake_monkey_kungfu.htm . Again, it is not hearsay.

The only reason this can be considered hearsay is if someone wants to make it more than it is. Someone has been and is misrepresenting another person's art. It is not a conspiracy; it is an institutional analysis.

Before you can dismiss this information, you need to investigate this situation further in order to boost your own understanding of all the whats and whys. I don't think you should take what I say at face value. Indeed, you should find out for yourself. In the process, you may be surprised by what you find. I know I was.

Doug M

[David Jamieson]

Doug-

I've seen that site and it belongs to one side of the argument, IE: Chan. (btw, the so called "international tai shing pek kwar federation is also founded by Chan)

He and his son have a vested interest in the business of monkey kungfu, because that is what they sell and do.

There is no corroborating information anywhere else except through there...

so far.

so how is it possible to investigate further when all you have is Chan's own site making the accusations and Zink not answering.

so, if it ain't third party, it's hearsay in my books.

Place this in mind though...even if Paul was false
a) maybe his art can be used to fight anyway despite false claims
b) even if Chan was right...being right doesn't make an individual any less of a complainer...it just makes him a RIGHT cry baby instead of a wrong one

That's kinda what I was getting at I_S except that I am not 100% sure that Chan is indeed right. No one is corroberating with him that would know in detail what's going on. Say a si suk or a si hing of his that can confirm and that is known as part of the lineage yet has a seperate school from Chan?

That would satisfy the question I think.

[David Jamieson]

I would also ad that their photos of zink and their pointing out that this posture or that posture as being wrong in itself is an egrigious thing.

One could say the same thing about anyones style of kungfu.

IE a hung gar school can say another hung gar school is doing it wrong. But they can both be from the same root.

In short it's neither here nor there. If it works it works period.

cheers

[Doug]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I_S-

maybe...maybe not.

For instance, did Chan approach Zink personally and cross hands?

When Grandmaster Chan arrived in California for seminars, Zink did not bother to accomodate him or meet him. Nothing was exchanged.

I never heard anything like that, what i did notice was that Chan came to the west, set up shop and set out to destroy any competition.

At least, that's how it appeared in print and on his site.

Now, that is new. I have never heard that before, nor do I believe it. Have you ever met the man? This image would change had you done so. But how do you come to this conclusion? What signals this perspective to you?

Also, what if the issue is a schism/politcal one in regards to Cho Chat? Maybe Cho Chat did learn in that lineage? Chan is teh only one who has stepped forward and decried it so far.

As stated, no Cho Chat Ling is in the original Tai Shing Pek Kwar lineage. Contact the above web site to ask the Monkey King for yourself.

Well, there is a response on Zink's web site, so it does represent his opinion if he allowed it on there.

Silence speaks for itself, so the fact that Zink has not even bothered to contact the authentic school says much about what has happened.

I mean it's all speculation. And it doesn't speak to either guys skills or credibility except that one does not like the other. Zink hasn't said anything really at his site or elsewhere so far.

No, it is not speculation. Contact the original Tai Shing Pek Kwar school to talk to them through e-mail: http://tspk.com/english/contact_us.htm .

And, yes, Zink has said plenty on his web site. However, trying to get you a link to the actual web page shows that it has been taken down. Still, he allowed text on his site to say that the authentic school is not true. Funny, this Zink: a guy comes from nowhere to claim historic heritage while a historically recorded school claims he is a fake. Hmmm.

In addition, the text on the front page that sates, "Click here to find out more about the official book of the Monkey," also is a product of theft. He used images that were not his to use, nor did he ask permission to use them. The claims he makes in his book are false too, according to the authentic school. I can say more, but I prefer not to name people. A face-to-face conversation on this matter would be far better.

It would be interesting for this to be settled in such a way that we could all know who teh monkey king is instead of the evasive one (zink) or the overt complainer (Chan)

Uh, there is really only one Monkey King: Grandmaster Chan Sau Chung. That was his title for quite some time before Zink got the same title in print.

And I think that calling a respected martial artist an "overt complainer" is mistaken and far from the point at hand.

If the desire is for these two to rumble, that would also be far from the mark: one guy is misrepresenting an art. You have to understand that this is a family's life, promoting and maintaining a tradition. Someone is misrepresenting that tradition. He is messing up the Tai Shing Pek Kwar name. That is the stuff of blood feuds (which, fortunately, is not happeneing).

Doug M

[Doug]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Doug-

I've seen that site and it belongs to one side of the argument, IE: Chan. (btw, the so called "international tai shing pek kwar federation is also founded by Chan)

He and his son have a vested interest in the business of monkey kungfu, because that is what they sell and do.

There is no corroborating information anywhere else except through there...

so far.

Yes, that argument belongs to the original school. That is not controversial. If much of the information that backs up their argument comes from them, that is no surprise.

Yes, they are selling kung fu as is Zink. That is a consequence of living in a capitalist society. However, that is their art, which is more than a business. It is a lifetime of learning, teaching, and being. It is not just a business that they are defending.

And, no, I believe that the failure of Zink and Matsuda to do a lot of things that fellow martial artists do for each other as well as respond to claims and allow proper responses supports the argument made. Hey, I tried many times to contact them. No one ever got back to me. These guys know what they are doing.

Doug M

[Doug]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I would also ad that their photos of zink and their pointing out that this posture or that posture as being wrong in itself is an egrigious thing.

One could say the same thing about anyones style of kungfu.

Except that this is the original school making the claim. Have you bothered to contact them yet?

In short it's neither here nor there. If it works it works period.

Yeah, as long as you don't mind learning from a fake.

Doug M

[lkfmdc]

I am always amazed Zink is still around, or that anyone cares for what he does, but this IS the US

As it happens, not only was my sifu (Chan Tai-San) a friend of one of Chan Sau Chung's students

I was friends with a guy who knew Paulie Zink.

I've heard quite enough. Enough to know that Zink is completely full of crap....

Winning at open karate events and being in US based magazines means NOTHING... in Asia, everyone knows Chan Sau Chung and knows he inherited the Tai Sing Pek Gwa Myuhn system

For years, Paulie Zink's teacher was an "official secret". Then for a while he had a little Asian guy who was a friend of his that Zink used to claim was his teacher. My friend, who had known Zink for years, said the Asian guy was a buddy of Zink's and Zink started saying that was his teacher because so many questions popped up that Zink couldn't answer...

My friend also went back and forth to Hong Kong, studied with Chan Sau Chung and was actually the person who gave Zink a copy of Chan's book. Zink, not very bright or very ethical, copied the pictures out of the book and translated the text, adding in his mythical teacher Cho.....

A little prior to Zink's incredibly unethical copying of the book, Zink had actually tried to get certification from Chan Sau Chung. Chan was more interested in crushing Zink's head....

[iron_silk]

After thinking about it for sometime I have come to the conclusion that since Chan is more than willing to place this entire "business" on the line in public to view it is ONLY up Paul Zink now. I mean anyone has the right to make an accusation but it is up to Paul Zink and his martial arts friends to defend it.

In truth Paul has just tried to shy away from the whole thing.

This isn't like the whole stupid CLF controversy argument and mythical evidence never to be produced by people on forums but rather an organization, no matter from which side since either side is recognizable.

In the end it's about who is willing to put their name in PUBLIC and on the line about specific issues and topics. Everything is point for point up for debate and that's it.

There is nothing to theorize or debate until somebody is willing to uphold Zink's side in such specific point for point manner.

Because for anybody else who has no relations or experience to either is merely theorizing and essentially making things up. Get what I mean?

Now what I just said doesn't take into account of individual character or whether they good or bad people or who is wrong. Only the facts please. I never critize anyone beyond what they state anymore would be presuming.

[Doug]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
My friend also went back and forth to Hong Kong, studied with Chan Sau Chung and was actually the person who gave Zink a copy of Chan's book. Zink, not very bright or very ethical, copied the pictures out of the book and translated the text, adding in his mythical teacher Cho.....

That's right! Thanks for pointing this out. I completely forgot about this. In Zink's book, he has at least one photo that he took from the original Tai Shing Pek Kwar school's text that was altered (p 112). I know this because an individual directly involved showed me the original text photo and how Zink covered it (or tried to). To those who have not seen the original text, the alteration looks like a normal thing. But the areas are actually erased and filled in with grey fills (as in Photoshop) with different levels of darkness. It is totally modified. Why would he do this if not to hide something? Since the people who put it together were on the other side of the world, who would know or care about this fraud?

In fact, many, of the photos in Zink's book are from the original book. The guy used it without permission! He stole it!

And for anyone who has actually read the book, he or she will notice the surprising level of generality and "duh" level of working knowledge. When I read it, I felt that I had been insulted by the amount of extremely general information that could be learned from very general ideas about Chinese martial arts. This book is a joke, and it is not worth being in print. Other than seeing Zink hold his yoga positions for possible inspiration, it adds just about nothing to the limited available knowledge on Tai Shing Pek Kwar.

Doug M

[David Jamieson]

doug-

you make some points. Ross has a story to include.

seems convincing.

However, you were wondering how i got the impression that Chan came here, set up shop and destroy the competition.

well, his supporters, whoever they were came to this very forum and advertised the website and school when it first started out not so long ago in Vancouver.

At that time. There was the same declarations about the falseness of Zink.

Seemed a bit quick out the gate.

The tspk school could have easily spread and what you are saying would become known.

Surely there must have been someone in America who knew about the tspk? Why didn't they speak up before?

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

hello
i'd post this topic last year , i believe , and nobody answer . right now become a hot topic . i don't know why .
i'd read all the responses and i feel the only reason people defends zink is for they hate " kung fu big assosiations " .
i think zink have a great ability . and he must train hard . but the problem is stole something belong to other people . in my country i'd see kung fu people who learn a form from a wing lam videotape , perform better than someone from a original lineage . i think zink must be that case and is ok with the way he choose , but he is wrong when claim things he doen'st .
maybe he start with a little lie and then become a great ball of snow descending from a mountain . he can't stop it now .

[Sow Choy]

I would like to say...

I am pretty close to GM Chan Sau Chung and many of his students in Hong Kong and his son too...

They are really good people and they have worked very hard at promoting their art in Hong Kong and now in the west. GM Chan who is now in his 60's is very concerned with his art as well as traditional chines kung fu.

I do not know Paulie Zink, so I have nothing to say about him, but I do know that GM Chan and many of his students have tried to contact P Zink privately for quite some time. In fact back in 2000 they were asking me about him and how to get in touch with him.

They were very angry about Paulie Zinks claims. The clain that he was Tai Shing Pek Kwar Moon, for those of you who dont know... GM Chans sifu is the one who fused the 2 systems together " TAi Shing" & "Pek Kwar". So GM Chan knew everything his sifu did, if I am not mistaken he lived with his sifu and took care of him.

For someone to learn a system and become a sifu of traditional kung fu... It would take quite a long time... So GM Chan obviously knows everyone who attained that level as well as all of his teachers students. IF I remember correctly GM Chan was a very early if not the 1st student of his teacher GM Kan Tak Hoi.

So its all there for everyone to decide, but I ask everyone just be a bit nicer about GM Chan, he is protecting his lifework... I will not saying bad about Mr Zink either, If is he real or fake is for his students or prospects to decide, there is room for everyone in the world...

But I know we would be quite upset if someone said the same about being a sifu under GM Lee Koon Hung...

Peace,

Joe

[lkfmdc]

There are two main issues with Zink

1. He claims to be an important person in the lingeage and claims the title held by the universally recognized inheritor

2. What Zink does is circus tricks, bad gymnastics and has NOTHING to do with the actual system....


There is more than heaps of easily acquired information to prove Zink is a fraud.

Tai Sing Pek Gwa is a combination of two arts
1. Tai Sing (monkey)
and
2. Pek Gwa

(actually, there is a 3rd influence? Does Zink even know it? It is well known in Hong Kong)

Well, anyhoo, the first three sets taught are the Pek Gwa sets...

Extemely respected YC Wong of SF studied the Pek Gwa with Gan Duk Hoi (Chan's teacher) and still teaches the three Pek Gwa sets, I learned two of them from Sifu Wong....

Zink doesn't know them, in fact he does't teach anything resembling them at all.....