Bigger Muscle???

[looking_up]

Training taiji does not mean that you can't become strong, but I think if you get too caught up in strength your taiji will suffer. I constantly need to remind myself that by practicing in a relaxed manner I get more gains from the practice. Practice right, practice with quiet intensity for a good amount of time, and you'll ache all over your body. Then do taiji to make the aches go away....ha ha

[Repulsive Monkey]

Nice one!! Once again your comments show the ineptitude of mentally retarded flea.

[jun_erh]

r monkey- everything you know is wrong

[jun_erh]

quick hide your muscle!

think for yourself

[Former castleva]

"As for AGIANST. Lay on your back and bench 250 lbs ... please tell me how this is not against? You are fighting the weight! And when you cross hands and feel resistance, you will have trained to fight against it, give away your intention, and the better trained player will change and get you ... "

Gosh.Bench pressing is an exercise on it´s own.To train it,does not mean that you will apply it to MA too.What evidence are you basing your conclusion on?

" Worst of all, the lifting has affected their mind. Where they used to be open, they are now close minded. "

I hope you are not seriously saying that you believe that this is what lifting does to you INO.That would need some major support.

"I personally have seen two martial artist lose their skill from lifting, but now they are addicted to the practice. "

OK.I´ve also seen people benefit from lifting.What does that mean? Not much,except that lifting has proven benefits.
Once you collect a huge group of practicing MA together for an objective study and prove that their skills (once defined) are hurt by lifting,then you might have some support for a conclusion (it would still stand the chance of being wrong though).

"Weight training is against taiji principles completely, and I would even go so far as to say jogging does too."

Whoa.Why? Where in Tai Chi,is that said?

"A perfect example to me is Gracie. When he fist came out he beat tons of guys, and he was much smaller than them. He didn't need weight training, he had technique. "

Again,nobody has been saying that weightlifting is to take the place of your art.It is for supplement (unless of course,it is your primary hobby).You are not supposed to do weightlifting in the ring.

[Ray Pina]

Castle I hear ya, and believe me, not trying to change anyone's mind here ... just putting in my two cents. I hope everyone keeps lifting and training to kick harder and higher and all that ... I'll keep training mechanics and a refinement of my technique, just different aproaches, though I used to train that way. I played college football for a season and used to go to town on the makiware when studying Isshin-Ryu. My training is different now.

As for lifting, here is where we differ. My martial art is not something I turn on, and say, OK, now I will shield and use lifting power to drive under this attack, it just comes out on its own.

If you spend three days a week fighting weight, what happens when you feel weight being applied to your body? How do you react?

Maybe you can seperate the two ... good for you! I'm no even a taiji guy, but I live my art 24/7. How can you train against, then participate in against, training your muscle memory in against, over and over. You don't think this affects you as an internalist?

Again, if you did Hung Gar and weighed 160lbs I'd say you better lift ... if not, good luck.

And if I've seen two people shoot themselves in the foot do I need to see more to know I don't want to do the same. These were guys I used to not be able to beat. Now I beat them easily. What happened? With all their lifting I can push them easily and they can't push me ... where's the power?

Are you pushing with your arms, biceps or even chest? Or are you pushing with something else? All the bench press in the world, they won't equal the power of the thigh and a$$ of a 200lbs guy. I've been taugh to always call my big brother when it comes time to fight, not have the little guy do the job.

Again, this is just a difference in outlook though. I want to be able to fight the big guy, and when I age another 10, 15, 20 years, I want to fight the young guy. Should I invest in speed or power than? Or should I spend hours a week investing in both? And what happens when I get older? What happens when I slow down.

How can you be faster than the fast kid, more powerful than the big guy? This is what everyone is looking for. Should I lift and bounce the rubber ball, or should move as one and as little as possible?

[jun_erh]

for me, I am not strong naturally. very flexible and I run 4-5 miles a couple times a week, but I've been lifting twice a week for half a year and can bench press maybe 80 pounds. It's hard for the hard to meet the soft when there is no hard.

[bamboo_ leaf]

EF,

Is very right, the way taiji deals with force and the way weight training trains the body are very different.

the leaf used to lift as a younger man, even did a lot of body conditioning depending on the style I was working with.

It all works against the idea of taiji. Half of your training will be unlearning all the other things that you have taught your body.

For some they won’t be able to let it go and will never get it.

This is what I have found and saw in other people. If the question is can wt training help your taiji practice I don’t see how. Others may find something different.

[Golden Arms]

If you take your martial art seriously, consistantly, over a long period of time, you will most likely realize that basically what EF says is true. Martial art is not designed to be a thing you turn on, its designed to just be integrated into how you work, which is why you hear people talk about how 'much of your style can you use'. If you turn it on and off..never very much, if you use it always, even walking down the street or practice breathing and posture while sitting until its unconcious, you then at least have the potential to get 'it'. Because of this, yes, weightlifting can have a VERY detrimental effect on your training, unless you just want to hit hard, but dont train sensitivity, speed, flow, adaptability to as high of a degree. Former Castleva, no need for proof...if you did it yourself you would know. EF is just trying to give some pretty good tips to guys that have yet to go down the road he has. The reason most will not believe him is the same reason that most will never be able to fight decently using tai chi, aikido, kung fu styles in general....etc. They must have 100% faith and be completely immersed in that way of moving of their style, or it doesnt 'become your own'

[Laughing Cow]

Great responses from EF, BL & GA.

Once a student asked my Sifu if he should take up exercises to increase his cardio, answer was do the form 10-times nonstop, if he could do it without props he got enough cardio.

I think among the skills we modern man are starting to loose are the important ones of:

1.) Asking the right questions
2.) Listening to our superiors
3.) Observation
4.) Making decisions without outside influence
5.) Judging the self

If I remember weight training(western style) is still very new new in China and not that widespread.

So we should ask ourselves how did MA-Masters build strength and similar without using weights back in those days.

The next question will need to be are the traditional or the modern method BEST for what I am doing.

After that only can you make a decision.

Just some ramblings.

[jun_erh]

I completely disagree, but let me ask you anti weightlifting guys a question. Which is worse having alot of extra muscle or alot of extra fat? Because it terms of health the answer is obvious. But I gather health is not really a concern of yours

[Laughing Cow]

Jun_erh.

Let me ask you a question what is more important for you having good MA skill or a good-looking body?

IME, most IMA guys tend to carry very little excess fat, exceptions do exist.
But BMI and if a six-pack is showing or not are not identifiers if a person is fit or strong.

I would go as far as saying that a low BMI is atleast as unhealthy as one that is too high.

Weights are not the ONLY method to reduce excess fat and gain health.

FWIW, and I am repeating myself here again IMA have their own methods of weight & strength training.

[Vash]

Perhaps if you went a bit more indepth into specific, physical reasons why non-internal training is bad for the martial artist, you're argument would gain some credence with those outside the IMA circle (or line, if someone happens to be Xingyi )

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vash
Perhaps if you went a bit more indepth into specific, physical reasons why non-internal training is bad for the martial artist, you're argument would gain some credence with those outside the IMA circle (or line, if someone happens to be Xingyi )

The reasons were given above in posts above by people way more skilled in IMA than me.
Reread the thread and also note whose posts I agreed with.

IMA tend to train the body to move in a certain way using certain "qualities", training that runs counter to those will naturally have an impact on the quality of your movements.

IMA does have weight and strength training designed to further the skill of the IMAist, there is no need to supplement with non-IMA methods that CAN result in reduced IMA skill.

If you have ever pushed with a 70 or 80 IMA or seen them handling a heavy weapon effortlessly than you would know that the skill does not come from muscles and pure strength alone.

Seeya.

[jun_erh]

I just think of this because of Robert Smiths big fat tai chi teacher (s) in Chinese Boxing: masters and methods.

I wonder about people if a tai chi teacher who tells his students not to weight lift or run has is commiting a criminal act when the poor kid gets his ass kicked by a 6 year old girl.