Bigger Muscle???

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by jun_erh
I just think of this because of Robert Smiths big fat tai chi teacher (s) in Chinese Boxing: masters and methods.

Who would that be??
I don't judge MA by their girdle size, but by their skill in MA.

I wonder about people if a tai chi teacher who tells his students not to weight lift or run has is commiting a criminal act when the poor kid gets his ass kicked by a 6 year old girl.

Maybe it is a crime if he does not develop/nurture DECENT MA skills in them.

[jun_erh]

golden arms- your avatar seems to contradict your statement

[Laughing Cow]

Here is an exempt from

THE TREATISE ON T'AI CHI CH'UAN
Attributed to Wang Tsung-yueh [Wang Zongyue] (18th Century)

The opponent does not know me;
I alone know him.

To become a peerless boxer results from this.

There are many boxing arts.

Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don't go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.

The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques.

From the sentence "A force of four ounces deflects a thousand pounds"
we know that the technique is not accomplished with strength.

The spectacle of an old person defeating a group of young people,
how can it be due to swiftness?

Seeya.

[Former castleva]

"There are many boxing arts.

Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don't go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.

The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques."

I wonder if this is just elitism in a tuxedo.I can be wrong of course.

"IMA does have weight and strength training designed to further the skill of the IMAist, there is no need to supplement with non-IMA methods that CAN result in reduced IMA skill."

And nobody has ably demonstrated why you cannot do that.

"
Former Castleva, no need for proof...if you did it yourself you would know. "

Let´s assume I did.Now what if I did,and DID fine?
Not very convincing IMHO.

"If I remember weight training(western style) is still very new new in China and not that widespread. "

That´s irrelevant (again,IMHO).Bodybuilding has become fairly popular in China I hear.

"The next question will need to be are the traditional or the modern method BEST for what I am doing."

A good question to ask!

"So we should ask ourselves how did MA-Masters build strength and similar without using weights back in those days"

Should you also ask whether you need to follow their footsteps in the most strict of manners? Considering how much has improved since-.

"If you have ever pushed with a 70 or 80 IMA or seen them handling a heavy weapon effortlessly than you would know that the skill does not come from muscles and pure strength alone.
"
AND

"Because of this, yes, weightlifting can have a VERY detrimental effect on your training, unless you just want to hit hard, but dont train sensitivity, speed, flow, adaptability to as high of a degree. "

It might be good enough to see a person,regardless of their status&age,to handle a heavy weapon effortlessly...but that´s another question.
None of us have been saying that "the skill comes from muscles and pure strength alone" (for example).
That smells like false dilemma/black&white fallacy.
There are more choises than "for or against us".

[Vash]

Ah, non-IMA training can bog down the IMArtist. Gotcha.

For my experience, those who I know in the MA who lift (not a lot, actually) don't rely on strength. Our sensei, who lifts constantly, and lays brick for a living, has done so for the past 20 someodd years, constantly tells everyone to finesse techniques. You can't win a fight against a good fighter with power. You gotta have the technique.

Rambling.

Strength training improves muscular function, including speed and (if the techniques are practiced like they should be) fine motor skills. If technique falters during weight training, two reasons: Decrease in technical practice, or overdevelopment of acting muscles in relation to the antagonists.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Should you also ask whether you need to follow their footsteps in the most strict of manners? Considering how much has improved since-.

Has it really improved or do we live under the false perception that things have improved?

When did NON-IMA people gain insight into IMA skill and their development, i don't see any how any outsider to any system/style can improve on it.
The changes have to come from within, not from a 3rd outside party.

Maybe you as a non-IMA person & others here should tell us IMA guys how we can improve on our art & skills.

Honestly looking forward to those improvements and proofs that your way is better in developing IMA skills.

Seeya.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vash
Strength training improves muscular function, including speed and (if the techniques are practiced like they should be) fine motor skills. If technique falters during weight training, two reasons: Decrease in technical practice, or overdevelopment of acting muscles in relation to the antagonists.

IMO, and some might disagree.

Your unarmed skills will not be complete and refined till you have done some weapon training.

Seeya.

[Former castleva]

"Has it really improved or do we live under the false perception that things have improved? "

He,he.I´m not a MA historian either,what I was hinting at had more to do with,say,exercise science (for example) than IMA.

"When did NON-IMA people gain insight into IMA skill and their development, i don't see any how any outsider to any system/style can improve on it.
The changes have to come from within, not from a 3rd outside party."

Well,3rd parties are allowed to express ideas,are not we?
I agree that change would ultimately come from within,probably.
As for NON-IMA gaining insight,I believe that´s possible.

"Maybe you as a non-IMA person & others here should tell us IMA guys how we can improve on our art & skills."

Or maybe not.But as a non-IMA person,my message is to look beyond the dogmas (if there really are any).

"Honestly looking forward to those improvements and proofs that your way is better in developing IMA skills.
"

Now it sounds like as if...Well,I have not made any statements like that (my ways,being better),so I won´t be giving you that proof.I give you props for thinking that way (asking for such etc.).

[Vash]

Actually, my ways are far superior to all other methods. EVER.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vash
Actually, my ways are far superior to all other methods. EVER.

Which one is that:

Curl up into a fetal ball behind a heap of smelly brown stuff and hope nobody notices you??
j/k

Acutally I have noticed that Dre-doggx has started similar threads on a variety of MA boards.

Interesting replies on those threads.

Seey.a

[Vash]

Actually, I prefer the method of kicking 'em in the cajones till they turn blue in the face, and said cajones evacuate through said victims ears.

Works every time. Someone help me out, is it Rhambala?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Lift if that’s what you want to do.
If your goal is to learn how to manage force and intention lifting won't help and will actually decrees the body’s sensitivities to incoming force.

To generate force, or jin as in (fa-jin) you must be extremely relaxed (song) again weight training will not help in this either. Absolutely no tension is allowed in the body.

Most people cannot generate any type of real relaxed jin, because they have trained their bodies to function in another way and they don't really belive that song will help them get it. They want to feel the force, actuly what they feel is the tension in their bodies, very diffrernt feeling then being relaxed and sunk.

If your goal is to get good at taiji, practice more and follow someone that you believe knows the way until you find it in your self. If you want to lift, go for it. give it about six months or so and see if it works for you.

ya never know until you try it.

[Vash]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Lift if that’s what you want to do.
If your goal is to learn how to manage force and intention lifting won't help and will actually decrees the body’s sensitivities to incoming force.

How?

To generate force, or jin as in (fa-jin) you must be extremely relaxed (song) again weight training will not help in this either.

Why?

Most people cannot generate any type of real relaxed jin, because they have trained their bodies to function in another way and they don't really belive that song will help them get it. They want to feel the force, actuly what they feel is the tension in their bodies, very diffrernt feeling then being relaxed and sunk.

And you know this how?

[bamboo_ leaf]

I should have paraphrased, with in my experience,
Take it as advice.

As to how I know this by experience of course.
No one sucks each must find there own way, again just some advice.

take it or leave it dosn't matter much does it ?

[Nexus]

I've found this thread very interesting and I think each person has taken the stance that defends their own "personal interest". The lifters advocate lifting is positive, the purist tai chi players advocate that lifting is detrimental to their purist tai chi. I have danced in both realms, as a lifter and a purist all natural tai chi player.

Having a few years under my belt and speaking from experience, I can say that weight lifting in moderation doesn't significantly hinder tai chi skills. It can also increase your capacity to competently do other tasks in life that require muscle/labor/etc. So can proper body mechanics, which are taught in good tai chi classes.

A balance that does not inhibit the flexibility, grace and flow of tai chi, but complements the strength and physique of the body and muscles is fine. If you want to look bigger for cosmetic reasons such as "the ladies", thats fine also. We do live in a society where image is important, and looking defined and well built can be advantageous in business, relationships, etc, since we have come to accept that "perspective is reality".

But to stay on track, weight lifting is ok in moderation. In excess, it will collapse the meridians (energy channels) of the body and cause chi (energy/life force) to stagnate all over the place. For those of you who want to work out, balance it by doing tai chi, but dont for a second get stuck in the thinking that you cant do quality tai chi if you weight lift, since that is simple rubbish. Proper lifting can complement your MA and your life in general.

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
EF,

Is very right, the way taiji deals with force and the way weight training trains the body are very different.

the leaf used to lift as a younger man, even did a lot of body conditioning depending on the style I was working with.

It all works against the idea of taiji. Half of your training will be unlearning all the other things that you have taught your body.

For some they won’t be able to let it go and will never get it.

This is what I have found and saw in other people. If the question is can wt training help your taiji practice I don’t see how. Others may find something different.