Bigger Muscle???

[Ray Pina]

1) I'd rather have extra muscle than extra fat, of course ... but not at the expense of being tight and building a habit to resist weight.

2) That quote is not ellitist. It's stating something vert important, that God has put a cap on your ability (strenght, speed) so how can you compete simply using them. Are you the strongest, fastest? Once you admit this, then you have to find a better way.

3) I still do two-man power drills, which is like my weight lifting but more natural. You collapse me but I pick you up. But there is technique in there and in actual usage I do not go against ... think of Hsing-I drill fist to pick up, or Ba Gua Peach Palm to put you down when you try to put me down.

Also, using the long and heavy Hsing-I pole ... I believe Taiji does the same. You can use your arms and get a hell of an arm workout. Or you can throw it out using your legs and whole body, just steadying it at its apex with your arms for s econd so it doesn't crash to the floor and then pull it back in, absorbing it and then throwing it out again with your full body.

4) I have much more to learn. Saw once again how pathetically little of my masters art I actually have.

[Former castleva]

"But to stay on track, weight lifting is ok in moderation. In excess, it will collapse the meridians (energy channels) of the body and cause chi (energy/life force) to stagnate all over the place. "

Anything can be bad in excess,and you could point out real&testable consequences,outside of fantasy.

[Golden Arms]

Jun_Erh How does my avatar conflict with my views. Lam Sai Wing is doing an excercise that is commonly done in DYNAMIC TENSION in the middle of one of the Hung Gar sets. His nickname was 'fatty/porky wing' but I doubt you would have wanted to mess with him. Regardless Nexus said something I believe to be true. The key to the rule is this: Everything in moderation. Its good to lift, and its good to relax..the end goal of tai chi is NOT to become a squishy pudding with bones that can mysteriously 'fa jing', but relaxation if very important. I lift weights heavy at least one time a week, but I do NOT do it 4-6 times a week, as I have seen my own MA suffer terribly from doing so. As one of my sihings is fond of saying, you must always have the dot of the yin in the yang, and the yang in the yin...balance is key. If you are naturally a very loose person, and yin, then lift more and do more rigourous stuff..if you are naturally tight, then the relaxation will help. So to paraphrase..both are important..as they are different paths up the same mountain. One who takes the hard path later needs to spend years learning to relax, and one that takes the soft path must later take years to learn how to handle someone trying to over power them with brute force, and must keep their body healthy.

[Vash]

OMG!!! I AGREE!!!

See, Laughing Cow, I told you my ways were superior to all others. EVER.

[jun_erh]

golden arms - it looked like the guy in the avatar had big muscles but it's kinda small pic. my mistake

I shouldn't talk because I lift like twice a week and it's pretty light. My point is more along the lines of like someone hear was talking about the balance of yin and yang. So what is the point of having too much yin? aren't you still unbalanced? It's like when someone dies of a Heroin overdose, there like some great artist and someone dies of cocaine overdose they're seen as some yuppie l.a. dude. But aren't they both dead? Is one more dead than the other??

and robert smith was taught by a number of fatsos whose chinese names I won't butcher by trying to write them here. They all smoked, except one this bizarre 18 buddha boxing guy, and who knows what else.

[Hobbs the vagus]

How do you guys reconcile with the idea that though the ancient masters did not lift weights in the Western world sense per se, but these guys were mostly laborers? These guys did hard physical work that had to have made them strong. (in the muscular sense) I know personally, I sit most of my day.

I have been a life long weight lifter, but when I started Taijiquan I gave it up, buying into the "softness". I hated it. Anything I did physical around the house would cause my arms or back to hurt for days later. In the past I have done what would be considered body building and also what would be called power lifting.

Currently, what I do now is in line with my thoughts about ancient master being physical laborers. I do things like dead lifts and squats and presses over my head holding a 45lb plate. No barbell. All exercises holding just the plate.

Hobbs

[Laughing Cow]

EF.

TJQ does train the Pole in a similar method, we call it shaking the Pole and it should be 300 times in a session I am told. For extra benefit we also use a longer than normal pole to increase the workout.

We also got the Kwan Dao set and a few other things like the Tai Ji Sphere and similar that will give you a solid workout.

Will it make you big like Arnold, I doubt it but you will get a healthy build.

Hobbs.

Not all the old masters were laborers, many of them were scholars or similar too.

Yes, they were phsycially more active, but it was not isolated muscle strength but more utilising the whole body which is in line with what I am taught.

One of our ex-students worked physically hard in a nursery and his skill improved very quickly as he applied the TJQ principles to his work and thus got an extra workout.

So, yes, there is something to be said for physical labour, which IMHO, is different from the average weights program in the Gym.

But what prevents you from applying the principles in your own work, sit a lot on the PC = relax shoulders, use the sitting zhang zhuang pose when possible, when picking things up try not to use muscle but rather intent, etc.

MA is how you apply it to your everyday life and if this is done correctly than you will reap the rewards.

As was stated above MA is not something you do 20hours a week or 3 times a week at the kwoon.
Or something that you switch on and off like a light-bulb.

Cheers.

[Hobbs the vagus]

I disagree with the idea that these martial artist were scholars. My reading has led me to believe that they were village people who needed to protect themselves and their villages, i.e. the Chen's. People who worked as caravan guards and hired "thugs". If these guys were "scholars", who paid them/feed them to sit around and "think" about taijiquan?

I very much see that my generalizations of "these people" are broad and frankly should carry no weight without specifics. It is only my humble opinion.


Hobbs

[Laughing Cow]

Hobbs.

You might be correct in regards to some of the Chen villagers, pls, also read ALL the TJQ histories and the stories of the masters. You might get a surprise, as to who they were and who taught them.

Yang Lu Chan was NO laborer for starters, neither was Sun Lu Tang.
Chen Wang Ting was a military/goverment official who hid from the law because he killed a person in a fight and/or because he faced prosecution. Would need to get exact story from my Sifu.

As for the scholars NOBODY paid them to think about TJQ, they earned a LIVING using their scholarly studies and not by using/teaching TJQ or other IMA.

Sorry, to burst your bubbles, but the guys back than had not that dissimilar lifes and living problems than we do now. (Rent, taxes, food & utility bills, Jobs, Families, etc.)

Many would like to see the Master of old training 24/7 and getting everything for free, fighting sparring matches daily, killing people and not being prosecuted by the law, but it didn't happen.

I also doubt that they Chen Village faced regular raids or similar problems in it's existence.

They worked and trained afterhours just the same as we do.

Cheers.

[Hobbs the vagus]

Laughing Cow,

"Sorry, to burst your bubbles, but the guys back than had not that dissimilar lifes and living problems than we do now. (Rent, taxes, food & utility bills, Jobs, Families, etc.)"

Don't be sorry, I don't live with bubbles....
That is exactly my point. These people worked with their bodies to pay rent, taxes etc....Please don't tell me they sat at their desks.

"Many would like to see the Master of old training 24/7 and getting everything for free, fighting sparring matches daily, killing people and not being prosecuted by the law, but it didn't happen."

I don't know what you are responding to. I agree, but don't know what your point is.


"I also doubt that they Chen Village faced regular raids or similar problems in it's existence"

Why do you doubt this? Let me ask you this, what was the motivation of the martial artist in the 1700s and 1800s?

It was to protect. Protect village, self and family. It also allowed jobs as agents of protection for the wealthy. The Chens were famous caravan guards.

Hobbs

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Hobbs the vagus

That is exactly my point. These people worked with their bodies to pay rent, taxes etc....Please don't tell me they sat at their desks.

So what does a goverment official do?? What does a calligrapher do??
Till the fields??

Like I said read the histories.

Why do you doubt this? Let me ask you this, what was the motivation of the martial artist in the 1700s and 1800s?

Earn a living, have a profession.
Many became fighters because they either had no home or not sufficient education to do anything else.
Read the Sun Lu Tang history.

It was to protect. Protect village, self and family. It also allowed jobs as agents of protection for the wealthy. The Chens were famous caravan guards.

How many villagers are needed to be trained to protect the village?
100% including elderly, women and children.
Some of the Villagers were caravan guards and fighers for hire, i.e. people that spend most of their time AWAY from the village and the farms.

The Chen village was famous for their MA throughout the region and people travelled to study there.
Not what I call a soft target for attack or raids.

Personally, I would estimate that only a small number of the villagers were trained fighters, the rest were farmers, admin staff, pot-makers, etc who at the most had some form of basic training.

Even back than the good MA charged high fees for their services/teachings and it was common that only people with money (scholars, officials, etc) could afford to train with them.
Yes, at times promising students were taken if they showed skill or came recommendet from another Master.

MA never was a poor mans game.

Seeya.

[Ray Pina]

Actually, if you're picking up heavy stuff, say trees in a nursury, using your legs and entire body, you're using Taiji principles already ... this is different than curling the weight to build muscles. One uses the entire body, the other isolates a muscle group and trains it to fight the weight. Same thing with using a pick, ect. Farmers and laborors alreday know about mechanics.

Every see a carpenter use a hammer? Then see some dimwhit who just bought his first hammer at Home Depot? Completely different. The carpenter uses the weight of the hammer to do the job.

Like wise, in Taiji you should borrow the other's weight and then give it back to them, or drop it on the floor.

When I played football I saw a guy pop a blood vessle in his head deadlifting ... I learned right then, and that was at least 10 years ago. When I saw him straining so hard all I could think was, "Put the weight down a$$hole, it's obviously too heavy."

[Merryprankster]

There is no substantive difference between lifting trees off the ground or deadlifting. As far as the guy popping a vessel lifting too much weight, that's his problem, not something inherent in the deadlift.

Proper powerlifts (minus the bench press) and O-lifting use the entire body. In fact, a deadlift works nearly 85% of the muscles in your body. O-lifts pretty much hit them all. Not only that, but a key component of O-lifting is to borrow the energy of the weight you are lifting to properly execute the lift.

[Ray Pina]

You're right that there is really no difference between picking up a tree properly and deadlifting.

If a tree is too heavy a farmer or worker at a nursey will ask someone to help them with it -- or the farmer may cut it up and use the wood for something else. A powerlifter will max out on it and add a 10 pound plate to each side next week.

Hey, I powerlifted the four years of HS and one year of college ball I played. I never got off on it but it was something I had to do. My bench sucked, but my squat was good. I don't miss it. I don't miss lion dancing either. Both build power ... but I think I have enough natural power. Now I want technical power, which is different.

This is my aim. I pray others chase the other horse ... only makes the formula more valuable later. 20 years from now we can see who was wiser. In fact, most of the guys I know who stuck with college ball, juicd up ... worthless now: Knees blown, back hurts, balding, hurting all the time. I'm glad I got out when I did.

[Merryprankster]

Hey, I powerlifted the four years of HS and one year of college ball I played. I never got off on it but it was something I had to do. My bench sucked, but my squat was good. I don't miss it. I don't miss lion dancing either. Both build power ... but I think I have enough natural power. Now I want technical power, which is different.

No argument here. I was a track and field thrower type in high school and college. I don't miss the iron. I was much stronger but I don't know how much it would really help me. I'm at a point in my development where, in a limited training time environment, I get more out of technical practice than lifting.

This is my aim. I pray others chase the other horse ... only makes the formula more valuable later. 20 years from now we can see who was wiser. In fact, most of the guys I know who stuck with college ball, juicd up ... worthless now: Knees blown, back hurts, balding, hurting all the time. I'm glad I got out when I did.

More an issue of excess than something inherent in the lifting itself, wouldn't you think?