Bigger Muscle???

[bamboo_ leaf]

I don’t think anyone is saying lifting in itself is bad, I think then the question would be weather it will help your taiji skills or not. For each of us depending on what where looking for the answer may be a little different.

Try this:

Place both hands on someone’s chest
Have them grab your forearms
Push them out

Ask them if they feel any tension in your forearms, hands ect. or do they just feel the momentum from your body being transfer into their body.

The idea of how force is generated in taiji is very different, there are certain requirements that have to be met in order to really generate this type of force. If you can lift and still meet the requirements no problem. my experience may be a little different then others so I don’t advocate something that didn’t work for me. Maybe it might work for others.

People have brought up the training of weapons in taiji, and suggested that they are a type of weight training. On this I would disagree.

I would say the intent was to be able to train a certain type of way to generate power ill respective of any direct benefit to over all streanght.

Just some thoughts

[fa_jing]

the way you lift is important. Lifting like a bodybuilder won't help you much for fighting. That is, emphasis on isolation movements and training to failure, strip sets, training on your back, in a chair, in an artificial postion, and all that nonsense. Some weights work emphasizing whole - body movements, concentric movement to mostly build strength rather than mass, etc. is good. Ballistic lifting, speed lifting, Oly style lifting will give you good functional strength, stretch your shoulder girdle and hips. Grip work is important too, for MA. If strength training is done correctly and with function over form as a goal, it will only make you stronger and more flexible for MA. Now, different MA have different attribute goals. Also, time spent cross-training is not only time that could be spent on technique, but also may re-inforce a neural groove that is counter active to the particular MA being studied. So one's goals need to be considered. Personally I fight with a style that is very much reliant on strength, as well as speed, structure, tactics, etc. For me to do overhead lockout work with the weights, is a great way to ensure that my shoulder will be stable and transfer energy efficiently during the contact phase of a punch.

[Merryprankster]

Well, I don't think improving your attributes improves your skills per se. It improves YOU and therefore the instrument through which you express your skills.

I can do pretty well with a cheap set of pots and pans, bad knives and a limited spice rack. I can do WAY better, a lot faster, with better instruments.

[Vapour]

Hmmm, I can't believe there are more than 5 pages of thread for such an simple question. Sorry if I repeated the point which was said before but I can't bothere to read entire comment.

Weight lifting strength your individual muscle in *isolation*. Therefore, it should be used as *supplement* to your strength exercise. Main part of your exercise should always use entire range of your body.

Say if you are professional judo athlets who train 6 hours a day, it would be absolutely necessarily to do weight exercise. But that is because you have been using whole range of body in other segments of your exercise. On the other hand, puting weight lifting as *core* of your strength exercise would be moronic if you are a martial artsist, IMO.

And anyone who think weight lifting is against internal style, how do you explain all those Kung Fu masters who swung iron bar every morning.

[Merryprankster]

Vapour, that depends entirely on the lift. There are several "Total Body Lifts" that work almost all of your body at the same time.

Using that as the core of your strength training is actually pretty smart. In fact, they're called "Core" exercises.

They include:

Deadlift
Power Cleans
Hang Cleans
Clean and Jerk
Clean and Press
Snatch
Hang Snatch
Squats and variations on same
Push Press


There are others and variations on that theme as well.

[Ray Pina]

As far as masters of the past, they used to wipe their a$$ with leaves too, but I won't follow suit.

My reason for being against weight lifting as a core part of MA training is not so much because it hurts you as that it's a waste of time. HOW MUCH BIGGER WILL YOU GET? And in the end, it's only called SELF DEFENSE when the other guy is bigger than you anyway ... or armed. So your power doesn't matter.

Last weekend a 6'6", 385!lbs man came to visit our school. My master is 145lbs and 62 years old. Do you think that man came to learn his deadlift?

[Merryprankster]

And in the end, it's only called SELF DEFENSE when the other guy is bigger than you anyway

Not true, but I get your point.

E-fist, it's not about getting bigger. It's about improving your attributes. Now there may not be a need to do so, or your time may be better spent doing other things. But it's not a waste of time. You can lift to get stronger without getting physically larger. There are ways to lift that promote strength over size. I have (in the past) successfully become MUCH stronger without gaining much weight.

The question is really one of diminishing returns. At some point, a person will have to sacrifice one for the other because of time constraints. I prefer at this point to work on my techniques. There may come a time when my learning curve on that is so steep that extra time yields few gains and I would be better off improving the instrument through which I express my training.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I think this is a genuinely useful conversation for exploring. That seems to be the point, I think.

[Ray Pina]

Absolutely.

It's just that I've made my choice already, and now having changed to Hsing-I, Ba Gua and E-chuan, there's so much to learn technically ... and I keep seeing time and time again how larger, stronger men who don't move efficiently and count on their strenght go down.

On the other hand, my technique was better than the last guy who beat me but I just couldn't damage him enough in the tournament setting. Not sure it would have been different on the street though either. I learned a lot from that encounter. I was a little too bull-headed, not wanting to seem like I was avoiding him (weighed in at over 250lbs) in the refs eyes. Next thing I know, 3rd round and kind of punch drunk. Started chippin away a little too late.

Came across a Bob Marley lyric the other day that I like:

"If you are a big tree. We are a small ax. Sharpened to cut you down. Waiting to cut you down ... .... These are the words of my master." -- Bob Marley.

[jun_erh]

pilates?

[dre_doggX]

I just wanted to appear stronger.

I LOVE SUNG, and FA-jing.

but since mentally Iam getting there, why not look bigger. even if I do tense I can always train back to softness.
by the way, I normally just practice Peng and Lu, and try to get prefect Sung. and find my center, which I think changes with every movenment. Its like listening to your bodies insides

[Merryprankster]

and I keep seeing time and time again how larger, stronger men who don't move efficiently and count on their strenght go down.

Don't know what to tell you other than they need to get better. It's really an issue of THEM.

I personally agree that your focus should be on doing things well. I personally don't have time to lift. If I did, I would.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Vapour, that depends entirely on the lift. There are several "Total Body Lifts" that work almost all of your body at the same time.

Using that as the core of your strength training is actually pretty smart. In fact, they're called "Core" exercises.

They include:

Deadlift
Power Cleans
Hang Cleans
Clean and Jerk
Clean and Press
Snatch
Hang Snatch
Squats and variations on same
Push Press


There are others and variations on that theme as well.

thanks. Most newb lifter start off with machine so I just wanted to give warnimg to initial poster.

[Vash]

Powerclean (and Press) is the SH!T! This should be required for ANYONE to do ANYTHING. EVER.

[jun_erh]

I don't see any difference between toe raises as performed in Ba Dua Jin (8 brocade) and toe raises performed with weights in the gym.

[Former castleva]

" I don't see any difference between toe raises as performed in Ba Dua Jin (8 brocade) and toe raises performed with weights in the gym. "

There is not much.Well,toe raise is rather uncomfortable if taken to extreme.