I'm puzzled by this. Your opinion wanted.

[Vapour]

I practice push hand as part of my taijiquan. Occasionally we do this exercise where we decide one is attacker and the other is defender where the attacker have to get into hold with the defender while the defender have to keep the attacker away. Also, my judo club do sumo wrestling in our weekend practice.

A observation from these experience is that it is very difficult to get into hold if the opponent keep arm as a shied or in case of sumo issue multiple palm push.

Now thing I don't understand is this. If punch and elbow are allowed instead of push, I would assume that it would make more difficult to get into hold. However, it is almost exception to see pure striker being able to prevent grappler's charge.

Why is this.

Now, to keep the level of discussion up, please do not offer your "insight" if you haven't done any grappling or sparred against grappler. Nor I appreciate comment such as "we have technique toooooo deadly for a competition." It's the skill that count not the technique you moron. I also am aware that amature wrestler have bad habit of not keeping body upright when they charge but this habit can be corrected easily so this is not part of my question.

[Marky]

"However, it is almost exception to see pure striker being able to prevent grappler's charge.

please do not offer your "insight" if you haven't done any grappling or sparred against grappler." Vapour


My experiences have been exactly the opposite to what you describe, though I can only speak for myself, and I may well be the insignificant and extreme data point in some statistical model.

I've been attacked with tackles in fights and I've "sparred" (with a strong desire to "win") with Brazilian Jiujutsu practitioners. In "sparring", either punches or elbows were sufficient, and in real fights I've dug into the shoulder behind the collar bone with a phoenix eye, I've used elbows to the face, and I finger gouged into one person's eye (it was an accident, but I decided to stick with what I had). That being said, I think the ultimate determining factor in a fight (in particular, when one person wants to go to the ground and the other wants to stay up) is one's "rootedness". If I hadn't stayed sunk when those guys tried to take me down, then they probably would have won. I feel confident in saying the BJJ guys would have won WITHOUT QUESTION in that regard.

So personally, I believe the reason that stand-up fighers might do poorly against ground fighers is because stand-up fighers spend too much time learning to punch and not enough time learning to stand with structure. Yet at the same time, grapplers seem to spend plenty of time learning how to get people to the ground if they so desire it.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Vapour
A observation from these experience is that it is very difficult to get into hold if the opponent keep arm as a shied or in case of sumo issue multiple palm push.

Now thing I don't understand is this. If punch and elbow are allowed instead of push, I would assume that it would make more difficult to get into hold. However, it is almost exception to see pure striker being able to prevent grappler's charge.

In both cases, the attacker's strategy is superiority of balance, posture, and position.

Only in the former case is this the defender's strategy. In the latter case it has changed to be trying to hit the attacker.

Different strategies, different results.

[SevenStar]

People have a tendency of losing focus while striking - sort of a tunnel vision. They start focusing on their strikes and lose sight of their balance and posture. However, that's not the only flaw - lack of motion is another. Simply rooting will not be enough.

In the case of the sumo style pushing youmentioned - your base is under you, your center is lowered, and you are pushing your opponent away. It makes you hard to double leg. There are several other techniques you can successfully pull off, however.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Marky
"However, it is almost exception to see pure striker being able to prevent grappler's charge.

please do not offer your "insight" if you haven't done any grappling or sparred against grappler." Vapour


My experiences have been exactly the opposite to what you describe, though I can only speak for myself, and I may well be the insignificant and extreme data point in some statistical model.

I've been attacked with tackles in fights and I've "sparred" (with a strong desire to "win") with Brazilian Jiujutsu practitioners. In "sparring", either punches or elbows were sufficient, and in real fights I've dug into the shoulder behind the collar bone with a phoenix eye, I've used elbows to the face, and I finger gouged into one person's eye (it was an accident, but I decided to stick with what I had). That being said, I think the ultimate determining factor in a fight (in particular, when one person wants to go to the ground and the other wants to stay up) is one's "rootedness". If I hadn't stayed sunk when those guys tried to take me down, then they probably would have won. I feel confident in saying the BJJ guys would have won WITHOUT QUESTION in that regard.

So personally, I believe the reason that stand-up fighers might do poorly against ground fighers is because stand-up fighers spend too much time learning to punch and not enough time learning to stand with structure. Yet at the same time, grapplers seem to spend plenty of time learning how to get people to the ground if they so desire it.

I appreciate later part of your comment. As of first part, are you saying that judo, sumo or pushhand isn't a grappling. That is quite a news to me. Care to offer your definition of grappling?

As of your argument that being rooted is the key. I kind of agree but you are missing a point. Grappling arts specialised in that aspect. wrestler usually wont' delude themsevles that they can outbox boxer and boxer can't uproot wrestler. If you have been so far successful, good for you though I think it is unlikely that striker has better root than grappler.

[LeeCasebolt]

Now thing I don't understand is this. If punch and elbow are allowed instead of push, I would assume that it would make more difficult to get into hold. However, it is almost exception to see pure striker being able to prevent grappler's charge.

That would be because, unlike your judo classmates, a "pure striker" has no idea how to counter a grappling attack.

Lee Casebolt

[omarthefish]

A lot of the confusion is possiby because taijiquan, IMHO, is basically a grappling art. Push hands is grappling. O.K. so no ground work but it's definately standing wrestling. So you actually specialize in avoiding being throw. I mean, isn't puch hands mostly about trying to mess up the other guys balance. Now most strikers never really train this.

One particularly big blow, sorry to say (again IMHO) was the Bruce Lee revolution of the 70's. Before BJJ came on the scene I remember how all these articles were pointing out how a higher narrower stance was more mobile and when facing someone with one of those low traditional stances you could totally outmanouever them. Ali style dancing became the order of the day. I think most people ( at the time, including me) had no clue that one of the most important reasons for those crazy low stances was to avoid being taken down. Remember the 'climbing stance' a.k.a. the front stance? When the hell does it come up in Muay Thai? Occasionally as you step off to the side and punch out sideways while you dodge but pretty rare. Now go to any wrestling site and look at what happens when they clinch. I see super low front stances all the time. One leg MUST get the hell back or he's got a double leg and you go down. It's always about keeping your center lower than his. The only 90 angle bends at the knee joint I EVER see are on wrestlers.

[Marky]

Hi Vapour,

I'll quote from you so you know what my answer is referring to.

"are you saying that judo, sumo or pushhand isn't a grappling." V

I don't know judo or sumo so if you say they're grappling, I can't argue with you. But based on my own (probably unsound) judgement, I would be inclined to agree with you. HOWEVER, I do know push hands and I would say that given certain rule restrictions, it is an exercise in grappling, though more importantly it is an exercise in sensitivity. As long as all you can do in push hands is locks, throws, takedowns, etc., and there are no strikes of any kind, I don't see how it could be anything but grappling. On the other hand, the sensitivity you can develop from it can be applied when in-fighting with punches, elbows, locks, takedowns, and everything else. So my answer to your question is "YES AND NO", as annoying as that may be.


"As of your argument that being rooted is the key. I kind of agree but you are missing a point. Grappling arts specialised in that aspect... I think it is unlikely that striker has better root than grappler." V

Being able to stay rooted is an attribute of humans, NOT an attribute of grapplers. Any human being can practice it, not just martial artists, and CERTAINLY not just grapplers. And though I may be the exception, I am a stand-up fighter who practices rootedness, and I've done pretty well for myself so far. Personally, I feel that ANY practitioner who doesn't learn rootedness will be lousy... but that doesn't mean everyone who practices it is automatically good!

[fa_jing]

I have technique so deadly, you can't use it for even a fight.

[yenhoi]

Im confused, what is your question?

A observation from these experience is that it is very difficult to get into hold if the opponent keep arm as a shied or in case of sumo issue multiple palm push

If your doing sensitivity drills like push hands, or judo type drills or what not, if this is the case cant you grab or otherwise engage whatever he is using to shield you... and if he somehow defends that, you cant use that defense to do what you were originally trying to to (which was what??)

[Vapour]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Im confused, what is your question?

A observation from these experience is that it is very difficult to get into hold if the opponent keep arm as a shied or in case of sumo issue multiple palm push

If your doing sensitivity drills like push hands, or judo type drills or what not, if this is the case cant you grab or otherwise engage whatever he is using to shield you... and if he somehow defends that, you cant use that defense to do what you were originally trying to to (which was what??)

Basically, it is my experience that if one guy stall in judo or pushhand (assuming there is wide space to move around), I find it very difficult to get into opponent. That is, advantage is in defender. I just don't understand why that doesn't seems to be the case.

[yenhoi]

I think from any somewhat neutral situation, the "attacker" will be at some sort of initial disadvantage.

At any rate, if he is not attacking you or obviously posturing to attack you your probably safe for the moment.

Learn to corner, cut off, out-wit, and manipulate or otherwise set your opponent up.

[omarthefish]

That's an interesting point. If you have basic grappling skills, 'stalling' is effective enough that many competitions penalize you for it. I forget the term but in a Judo comp. if you just keep both feet way back and don't try anything for a certain time period you can lose points.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Before BJJ came on the scene I remember how all these articles were pointing out how a higher narrower stance was more mobile and when facing someone with one of those low traditional stances you could totally outmanouever them. Ali style dancing became the order of the day. I think most people had no clue that one of the most important reasons for those crazy low stances was to avoid being taken down.

On the other hand, a high and narrow stance can also be used effectively in standing grappling. This is certainly the emphasis in some styles of the chinese internal arts. It has been pointed out to me that some judoka and wrestlers, as they advance in skill, tend to raise their stances as well.

You can see an example of a high, single-weighted stance used in stand-up grappling here.

[omarthefish]

In taiji it also holds true that as they bet better, they tend to stand taller BUT it is usually an indicator of how much better they are than you that they don't even have to sit low to have better root. I'm also wondering how much difference there is from when BOTH combatants are looking for the throw vs. one looking to throw and one looking only to maintain his feet. Some old grainy clips of Helio Gracie wrestling a Judo guy way back in the day. (shame on me for forgettting the Japanese guys name) They were pretty high too. OTOH:

http://www.lycoming.edu/sports/wrest.../wrestling.gif


and:

http://www.andover.edu/athletics/wre.../wrestling.jpg

Try imagining this one with just one or the other of those two guys practicing it solo and dressed in a gong-fu uniform. Then we could all make fun of him and ask what the hell it THAT supposed to be for? :

http://www.awg.gl/pictures/sports/iqaluit/Wrestling.jpg

Here's another one that could be straight out of an obscure empty hand form:

http://www.oksf.nu/judo.jpg