!!!TMA on video!!!

[Oso]

I also think there's not nearly as much difference between fighting styles as people would like to believe, but that's another flame war for a different thread.

that's what i've been saying for a while now...{shrug}

[Merryprankster]

It's also ignorant to assume a style doesn't use a punch because it's called something else, either.

Ummm... yeah, that's my point. Reading for Comprehension...

Oso--exactly. This style this and that stuff is nonsense. There's good training that adheres to good principles and there's bad training that doesn't. Style is a shorthand for emphases and training methods.

[MasterKiller]

Ummm... yeah, that's my point. Reading for Comprehension...

You could say "that's just like or is Tai Ji's Monkey ****s at the Moon," or whatever, but you can't say THAT technique belongs to Tai Ji.

I believe your point was that two systems that share techniques probably call related/identical techniques by different names. For example, jab A and jab B. Both are still jabs, but named different things.

My point was that it is a fallacy of some people here to assume that because something is referred to in a different manner, that it does not exist in a given system. For example, saying you don't have anything called punch A in your system, therefore you never punch, when in fact, punch A may be called "touching the monkey's cortex" or some weird Chinese shlt.

I see a distinction in argument there, however slight.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


If you're in a fight, and your opponent is standing there dazed, are you NOT gonna haul back and crack him as hard as you can because it's not proper Taiji body mechanic?

No, merryprankster is correct. It is a reading comprehension problem on your part masterkiller. Let us go back and review the original quote, shall we.

If you'll notice, no where does this quote indicate that punching is not contained within the Taijiquan curriculum. What id does indicate is that there may be other methods of punching that are in violation of the specific body mechanics taught within the Taijiquan curriculum.

The jab would be a great example here. The jab is technically NOT Taiji because it does not rely on full body, integrated force. In fact, full bodied integrated force kinda defeats the whole purpose of the jab. Therefore, if you are a "pure" Taiji guy, you cannot use a jab because it is not only an arm punch, it is disconnected from your body to give it that snappy speed.

[Golden Arms]

I am seeing some good points here..but some of this is BS too. Namely: That just because more than one style does a movement, they are the same, and not bound by style..I will tell you right now that my Punch from Hung Gar is a LOT different in feel from a Hsing I punch..both will f@ck you up, but they are different in feel and execution. Oh..and having a solid whole body jab is actually what a lot of guys strive for..its scary as hell when a guy can jab you almost as hard as he can cross you...cause the jab is hard to see if its aimed right.

[Water Dragon]

Right, but when you punch in a fight, do you say "Oh I will punch him a la Xing Yi" or "I will punch him a la Hung Gar" or "I'm gonna crack this guy upside the head."?

The jab thing may be semantics. What I think you are calling a full body jab, I would call a lead straight. I consider it different because it has a different purpose. One is a range finder, a question asker. The other is a entry/attack. Technically, you could call them both a jab as they are both lead hand straights.

[MasterKiller]

If you'll notice, no where does this quote indicate that punching is not contained within the Taijiquan curriculum.

What if the punch isn't in Yang style? Are you gonna not use it?

What id does indicate is that there may be other methods of punching that are in violation of the specific body mechanics taught within the Taijiquan curriculum.

Does the fact that other methods exist automatically disqualify you from using your method? Can a Taiji player crack someone as hard as possible using Taiji?

[Oso]

as said above, it's the variations that define the style.

I guess it's obviously difficult to say that what you are doing is not so different from what someone else is doing and to recognize that the only difference is just a variation and not something unique.

hmmm, not sure I'm making sense. ok, here's a recent example for me of something being different but still the same.

I've sparred with a boxer twice in the last two weeks. I've been trying to throw what I feel are traditional boxing punches (which probably aren't). I hadn't landed a hook punch at all until I told myself to just throw what we call a 'meteor' punch. As soon as I 'decided' to throw a punch I had trained, I landed it. For us it's a 'meteor' punch. Mechanically it is slightly different than a boxing 'hook'...check that, I perceive it to be slightly different, an external observer may not...but never the less, once I stopped trying to do something I had not trained and did something I had trained, I was more successful. However, I did not think that I had done something totally different than the hooks that my friend had been pelting me with the entire time...just my version of it.

lol, of course, my frirend says my movement is ok, and my endurance is good, but I need to work on my punches

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Does the fact that other methods exist automatically disqualify you from using your method? Can a Taiji player crack someone as hard as possible using Taiji?

OK, let's assume that you are the hero in a Hong Kong Action flick. After a grueling 20 minute battle to the death, you are about to defeat your nemesis. He is dazed and has fallen to his knees in front of you. You cock your right fist back to your ear and are about to crash said fist into your defeated nemesis' face, when the Director calls out, "Hey! WTF are you doing? You can't draw your fist back like that, that's not Taiji. You need to have your elbow down when you punch. Try it again guys, and this time make sure you do Step Forward and Punch Down like a proper Taiji guy would do."

It is better to be effective in combat, than pure in style.

[MasterKiller]

Are you assuming that ****ing your hand back as far as possible generates the most power while punching? Proper mechanics are proper mechanics, and someone who has trained enough, regardless of style, will know this instinctively.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, I think you can get more bang for your buck outta that punch than any other. That's probably why every untrained person I have ever seen throws a punch like that.

You just open yourself up for a $hitload of counters when you do that. But it does have its place. Whether or not it's in your "style"

I'm bowing out of this one. This is about to become another one of those infamous KFM childish shouting matches.

[MasterKiller]

effective in combat, than pure in style.

I just don't think these are mutually exclusive.

[Merryprankster]

Namely: That just because more than one style does a movement, they are the same, and not bound by style..I will tell you right now that my Punch from Hung Gar is a LOT different in feel from a Hsing I punch..both will f@ck you up, but they are different in feel and execution.

Somebody, somewhere, is throwing a shot completely analogous to your Hsing I punch. Maybe it's not in Hung Gar. Maybe it's in something else.

Somebody somewhere, is throwing a shot completely analgous to your Hung Gar punch. Maybe it's not in your Hsing Yi training. Maybe it's in something else.

My point is this: We have one instrument of expression--the human body. The basic principles of appropriate movement--and therefore fighting--must remain the same. Violations of those principles is bad. Adhering to those principles is good. "Style" is a shorthand for emphases and training methods.

[Golden Arms]

Although I feel there may be exceptions to that due to major modifications in some styles (hsing i for example) of the body mechanic itself and non intuitive ways of using your body for power generation..I will agree with MP..this is for the most part true of 90% of the techniques you are going to run into.

[Xebsball]

Re vera, potas bene.