Attn all Shaolin Do players

[Internal Boxer]

Just curious if any of your guys competed on the MMA scene. It appears there is a hell of a lot of SD bashing that goes on here, if you want to be taken seriously as good fighters then try competing in MMA, then practioners of other arts will not be able to cast doubts over the martial effectiveness of the art. Obviously this does not answer the critics of your historical origins, but hey who gives a crap about lineage if you can produce quality MMA fighters that is what will gain global respect.

becuase of the size of your organisation you would have the "people power" to train for MMA type tournie.

[Judge Pen]

It may be a good idea, but my guess is that some fo the powers that be would oppose an organization wide push toward MMA. Individuals my cross-train and branch out on their own, but that would not utilize the "people power" that you have mentioned.

I'm sure that there are MMA fighters with backgrounds, to some extent, in SD but I can't point to any examples. I have heard that Frank Mingione, a 7th degree, had quite a bit of success in the Pan American games in the early 90's, but I don't have any documentation for that assertion.

It'a an interesting idea, but my guess is that SD wants to remain in the realm of TMA for good or for bad.

[Dark Knight]

Is effectiveness the question or lineage? If you are here to say that SD is the ultimate fighting style, then we want some proof other than “My instructor can beat all his students”, or the usual “At the XXX tournament (Closed to outside people) 7th degree onehung guy did a 10 man fight demo”. Then we have questions as to writing checks with your mouth that you cant back cover.

I am sure that is not an issue. I’m sure there are many students that feel SD is the greatest art, but all styles have that, its pride in what you do.

I am not a SD guy, and over the last 25+ years have seen many styles created, many effective and many not. If a SD guy went to UFC and won, would this end all the debates?

It seems that the biggest complaint about SD is its lineage. Is it real Shaolin?

As we debate SD, lets make sure we are debating the right issue, is it effectivness or lineage, or am I really missing the problem.

[MasterKiller]

DK,
You hit the nail on the head.

Besides, a MMA loss, by definition, would only prove that one guy had to study and practice several systems in order to defeat your one Kung-Fu system, whatever that style may be.

[Ray Pina]

I have no beef with SD, their claims to shaolin are no less absurd than any local Winch Chun school's.

What I question are ranks like 7th degree. What style? Who gave him that rank? 7th degree? You go to Japan and you have to be a wrecking ball to get 3rd degree.

I thought there are like a handful of 7th degrees in the entire world. I know about this crap because I was a second degree when I was a young teen. Yes, I started at 4 years old, knew all the forms and kept winning tournaments, but I had no business with that rank in my eyes. Then again, what could my teacher do, keep me at brown for the rest of my life? I hate belt systems.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I have no beef with SD, their claims to shaolin are no less absurd than any local Winch Chun school's.

What I question are ranks like 7th degree. What style? Who gave him that rank? 7th degree? You go to Japan and you have to be a wrecking ball to get 3rd degree.

I thought there are like a handful of 7th degrees in the entire world. I know about this crap because I was a second degree when I was a young teen. Yes, I started at 4 years old, knew all the forms and kept winning tournaments, but I had no business with that rank in my eyes. Then again, what could my teacher do, keep me at brown for the rest of my life? I hate belt systems.

Ranking systems are subjective, but SD does at least set up a schedule of material to be learned and tested on prior to rank advancement. Supposedly, the rank advancement started in Indonesia and not America. Reportedly, when Sin came to America he was a 5th degree and that was the highest rank under the rank of grandmaster which was passed down. He reportedly encounted martial artists who were 7th, 8th, or 9th degrees and he reported this to Ie who said, fine, You are now a 9th degree. That's the stroy anyway.

[Dark Knight]

Who promoted him to 10th?

[Ray Pina]

I think his teacher might have been making fun of him and he didn't even know it.

[Judge Pen]

Later Ie promoted him to 10th and grandmaster. I read a translation of the letter that accompanied the promotion, but I don't have a copy.

I don't follow how Ie was making fun of him. I take the story to mean that the degree don't matter and if 9th is equivilant in America to a 5th in Indonesia, then fine. Call it whatever you want to.

[The Willow Sword]

that is a correct assesment of the ranking system in it of itself. AT SD the rank is with SD and SD only. that rank does not extend to any other organizations(i thought that would be obvious to certain people here). As for Sd people going to other tourneys to compete. it has been done before. I went to an AAU tourney in round rock texas and won the mens advanced continuous sparring there and placed second in forms and 3rd in weapons.
but for the most part i have not seen(at least from the texas end of things) where SD students or Black belts went to other tournaments. being one who did not shut myself out of other martial arts styles or the MA community i can say that maybe one of the reasons for Sd people not going to other tourneys and "representin´" is the fact that noone really respects the Sd practitioner(hey its just my opinion in this matter) but i also know that there is a lot of elitest crap that is apparent at Sd and really when you look at it there is this kind of mentality at other schools as well. the only difference is that you see these other schools going to open tournamnets and competeing against other styles and representin thier system. i guess with all the boasting and the claims that SD makes if they were to go to these MMA tournys and lose, it would make them look pretty foolish as to what they claim and hoe effective they think they are. its also funny in that in the SDA(shaolin do association) the words of GM SIn are as follows. "if your primary interest it tournament skills id advise you to seek your training elsewhere, most of what you will learn is too deadly for tournaments, we teach shaolin-do, art of survival".i mean in a nut shell that is what is emphasised,,hahaha and yet now there are all these Sd tourneys now,and now open tourneys that master Mullins hosts. i see a few contradicitions there.
anyway, i have always maintained that if your school and system comes under such scrutiny and disrespect from the rest of the MA community then i think one should make the effort to defend what they do and it should be the founding Practitioners that should do this. But the fact that Sd doesnt go out there and really "represent" themselves shows, in my opinion, a lack of respect or inegrity for anyone else in the martial arts community.
i dont down what is taught at Sd with respect to curriculum, i just dont agree with the politics behind what Sd is about and its hard to escape the politics when you are an Sd teacher and even more so a student trying to connect with other people in other styles .
TWS

[Judge Pen]

TWS,

Politics is a problem in a lot of areas and in several different MAs. That's one of the reasons lineage is emphasized. I think more SD people should go out to other tourney's and I hope to be able to put my money where my mouth is, but I can see the detterant if SD people are as poorly received by reputation alone as some poeple treat us here. I thnk that any allegations of lack of respect or integrity should be on the individual level and not an indictment of the entire organization and everyone in it (like me).

Rank is nothing more than a symbol of materail that you have supposedly learned and does not always correspond to your ability to use that materal.

[Dark Knight]

I have seen other organizations like this. The biggest reason many of these get no respect is because someone in the organization is making bougus claims about lineage or what they are teaching.

Too deadly is a big one. When the students start repeating this and no one has any way of backing it up.

Closed tournaments are another, this is usually so the students cant see what the rest of the world is doing and the bougus claims can never be questioned.

Not allowing students to compete in outside tournaments..see closed tournaments.

Black Belt contracts. Those are big money makers. You make a promise that for a certain amount of money you are going to teach a student until they become a Black Belt. (Most people drop out long before BB and the school keeps the money)

Lot of bad business practices.

I havent run into a SD school and dont know if they do these. But the lineage one sounds like one of them, perhaps a SD guy can expand on this.

Also, shouldnt you have sash instaed of a belt? And the uniforms?

There are a ton of schools that do not teach TMA but thier own style. That is fine, but dont misrepresent yourself and dont try to lie to your students.

[Judge Pen]

DK,

The belt and gi question has been discussed ad naseum before and a search should answer questions.

I totally understand questions about lineage. There's too much misinformation floating around out there, but I don't have the frame of reference to clear anything up other then explain my thoughts on the matter.

As far as BB contracts, I haven't heard of these before. There are professional teachers in SD, but as many, if not more are part time because they love the art. My first teacher was this way. My current teacher is only part time as well.

SD is a large enough organization where we can have a very large closed tournament once a year which is fun to see different schools and teachers and how they teach the same material. I agree that this should be an annual exception and not the rule. I don't think that any school prohibits one from participating in an open tournament and I would like to see more interaction between Sd and other CMA. It would go a long way for understanding on both sides.

I don't like the too deadly claims either. All TMA teach techniques that should not be done in a tournament environment, but that doesn't make the abilities one has not transferrable to a tounament. If that was the case, then one couldn't even spar in class.

I hope this clear up some of your questions on SD.

[Ray Pina]

There are always politics at tournamenrts: Who's throwing it, who's judging. But it's hard to single out a school as SD unless you come in with big patches all over your gi. That's easy, get a fresh patchless gi.

But like I said, I have no problems with SD, just this ranking thing in general.

When I see someone holding a second degree black belt, I should be thinking this guy can kick some a$$ ... not, wow, I bet he knows 15 forms and can do a full split.

As for why I thought his teacher was making fun of him. "Teacher, teacher, I was in America and they have 8th, 9th, 10th degree black belts over there teacher."

Teacher responds: "Ok, my son. You are now an 11th degree."

Student walks out feeling great and powerful, he just rose 6 degrees and did nothing.

Teacher to himself: "What a dim wit. All this time, all this training, and all he cares about are stripes on his belt!" Kind of glad that he could get rid of him so easily, 6 pieces of tape.

BJJ is kind of the only guys now who's belt rankings mean much. You play with a purple belt and it means something. Brown, those guys are tough. Black belt ... not a dime a dozen.

[Dark Knight]

Judo requires you to compete inorder to move up. How well you do will move you along faster.

I really dont have a problem with belt ranking. There is no clear meaning to what a Black belt is. I am with a couple national and international organizations and when we deal with other countries, we hear about come to America for a 10th degree. Europe is getting like that also. But what is the standard for a Black belt?

In BJJ they see you as a Black Belt when you are at the ability of the other Black belts. They judge it on ability. If that is the standard, what about a TKD BB? If he is judged by his peers, thats in TKD not BJJ or Shaolin. So now consistancy is a problem. What defines a Black belt in one system may not be the same in another.

I personally feel that if you are a Black Belt you should be able to back it up, put on the gloves and show you can fight under the stress of a full contact attack, and be able to stay in and hold your ground. A first Degree Black Belt is not superman, but he can get in there.

With the organizations I'm with time in rank and age also come into play. Experience has a lot to do with rank. Frank Shamrock trained for two years before he won his first UFC. But that does not make him a 10th degree Black belt. Experience comes into play for rank, experience will (or should) give more ability. There are only a certain amount of kicks, punches, throws... Experience will give a better understanding of how to use these tools.

We dont have any 45 year old 10th degrees running around in our organizations, there is an expected amount of time in and age that goes with it. Even Kano didnt take the title O'Sensei until late in his life. And we dont have 10 year old Black Belts running around.


Right now you can go to a ton of organizations that will promote you for a small fee (See Phil Porter at US Martial Arts Association) Some people should be promoted and some shouldnt. But with no standard who is to say?

Generally if you stay with National Governing Bodies, they have a standard for rank. When you show up somewhere as what ever rank, you can back it up with a legitimate organization (US National Karate Federation for Karate, US Ju-Jitsu for Ju-Jitsu, Judo has two in the US…) But too many people promote themselves, or have been promoted for money, have little or no standards then push out more “Black Belts” to make it worse.

“Teacher to himself: "What a dim wit. All this time, all this training, and all he cares about are stripes on his belt!" Kind of glad that he could get rid of him so easily, 6 pieces of tape.”

A lot of that going on every day.