New SD Videos at Shaolin Center

[GreyMystik]

my point exactly... you can't expect to get a good foundation in something when that something is just several forms thrown together.

allow me to ask the SLD folks this question- you have said something to the effect of the forms you study are building the foundation for your system, or helping you develop the foundation of your system...
what *IS* the foundation of your system? what's the "core"? what makes Shaolin-do, Shaolin-do?
what makes your system different from, say for example, Serpent or Illusionfist or FuPow saying "i have the knowledge!" and running around teaching tons of forms from different systems?

i guess what i'm wondering is, what's the real "meat" of shaolin-do? if it's a bunch of forms from other systems, i don't really see much substance...

for example, let's say we are talking about Wing Chun (a fairly well-known system). the core elements would be relaxation, economy of motion, centerline principles, sensitivity, etc... these are fundamental princples of the wing chun system and things that any person well-versed and proficient in wing chun should be able to manifest (among others).
what do proficient Shaolin-Do folks manifest? what makes them unique; what is their "identity" so to speak?

[ninthdrunk]

Adaptation & accomodation

[First-Chevalier]

Add to Ninth's points quality of life, joy of living, & respect for others. One of the core principals my instructor is constantly passing on is life inside and outside of the kwoon is connected. What goes in one area affects the other.

[Shaolin-Do]

Id say the system is more or less based off of the short forms and sparring techniques...

[First-Chevalier]

I think the real issue we're all discussing here is one of philosophy. Regardless of what you may think about those of us who practice SD, it is a way of doing things in the MA world. You may disagree with those ways or may think there's a better way, but it is a way none the less.

To try and bash its leadership because you disagree with its methods is the weakest of arguments you could possibly make. I've read through this entrie thread and seen attacks and defenses on every point. No, I've not researched all the dates, times, and places. However, I've seen the arguments from those who have and what it comes down to is your own personal desire to either believe or not, and you will ultimately prove yourself right no matter what your belief starts out as.

In the end it doesn't matter if you start out taking Tae Bo at Bally's or studying in the temples in China. If you aren't improving yourself, and those around you, you've failed your instructors. To me Kung Fu isn't about breaking bones, getting in fights, and being Billy Bad @$$ on the block. It's about being better than the only person whose opinion of me matters at the end of the day, and that is me. Jesus loves me no matter what I do, so that means I only have to make myself happy when it's all said and done. If the only reason you're in MA is to break things, win fights, and collect trophies, then your missing out on 99% of what makes Kung Fu Kung Fu, in my humble opinion.

[MasterKiller]

If the only reason you're in MA is to break things, win fights, and collect trophies, then your missing out on 99% of what makes Kung Fu Kung Fu, in my humble opinion.

99% of kung fu is breaking bones and winning fights....the 1% is the esoteric stuff. How much of your training time is devoted to 'feeling happy' as opposed to hitting a bag?

[First-Chevalier]

Unless you live in the school, you spend much more of your time out in the world living, doing your day job, spending time with family and friends. How much of that time invovles breaking bones and punching a bag? Hopefully none, yet the principals learned in the kwoon can still apply to that other time as well. Why do you thing Yang Tai Chi has the nick name 'meditation in motion'? You can meditate on many things other than a new way to cause your oponent injury. To my mind there are pleanty of ways to find new applications, but to spend time on the other provides balance that would help you find your center and thus improve your over all art.

To answer your question, I don't spend nearly as much time as I'd like working out, but I try to avail myself of at least five trips to the school each week. I average about four though. I'm not as dedicated as many and my art suffers for it, I know. I try to work in little things when I can, like droping into a cat stance while waiting for our interminably slow copier, or opening doors with different arm structures as I walk around our building. It's not much, but I figure every little bit helps.

[ninthdrunk]

I think First is referring to the accomplishment, the dedication, the ability to overcome other obstacles in your life that you learn from training in martial arts. I feel that this is the ultimate goal of martial arts. To live a better life. I use this on my students a lot:

You may learn a form that you believe you will never be able to perform. Then you keep at it, not really believing that you will succeed. Then you start to realize that you are already a lot better at it than when you first learned it. You start to really work at it, and you find that the more you work at it, the better you get. Then someday, another student says "Dang I wish I could do that form as well as you can". You have now been empowered. You learn that you can accomplish the things that you would otherwise not even bother to attempt. Without even realizing it most of the time, this will carry over into your daily life as well.

Heck, martial arts are always advertising how great they are for kids. Its this same idea. The kids learn to try harder and they will feel better( ie. do your **** homework, and you will get a good grade and not be yelled at or grounded to your room). That is where the confidence factor comes in...its not because they feel like they can fight. Heck, when i was a kid, I was more worried about nintendo and girls than I was about fighting (that is in no particular order by the way)...and I was training in martial arts!

I know its kinda cheesy, but I think that is what martial arts is all about. Im sorry kung fu is not about breaking bones and winning fights. How many fights do people really get into these days? How many bones have any of us broken (besides our own)? And most of us wont have to deal with either of those situations for the rest of our lives. For all the training I have done, I have been in one fight...and that was a huge misunderstanding. My quality of life is always improving. Once I grew a little older and started to really pay attention to what my teachers were trying to teach me, I have improved every aspect of my life tenfold. My fighting ability still increases...you train your hardest and the other stuff is just a by-product. I hope that all martial arts are teaching their students this lesson. I feel bad for anyone who is just in this to hurt others.

Ben

ps. sorry to rant...

[First-Chevalier]

Ninth,

Thank you. A much better stating of my point.

[ninthdrunk]

No problem! Good to know you guys in Atlanta are on the same page!

Ben

[GreyMystik]

that may be what it has become, in some eyes, a sort of 'champion of all that is good and wholesome' or whatnot...

but i tend to agree with masterkiller... i train to be able to fight and fight well. the other benefits are secondary.

think about it, you can get all kinds of health benefits from yoga, meditation, etc... so why do martial arts? i think for most, it's because they want more than just the health benefits.

people talk about wu de this and mo duk that, but i think when it boils down to it, the martial arts are about fighting, plain and simple. everything else is gravy.

[Judge Pen]

Nice posts everyone. Shaolin arab makes wonderful points. SD (the person) makes a great point that most of our art is based off the short forms and sparring techniqes in that is what we do more than anything and many of our forms repeat the techniques learned their albeit from differing angles and ranges to improves one application of the basics.

SD is SD. Our mantis is not the same as yours as is our tigers, cranes, or tai chi. They are based on similar principles; however, as all the detractors have pointed out, when you teach them together as patchwork, the meanings change slightly and take on their own meaning. In film the theory is the meaning of each individual photograph changes dramatically when you show those photographs in a sequence. The individual pictures are authentic, but their meaning does change in perspective with the ohter pictures. The same with SD's forms. A meaning is present, an art is taught, and martial applications are absorbed, by the teaching of these different forms. There is a progression desinged to allow an SD practitioner to adapt to the circumstance even if the process changes the forms from what you know them to be in your study.

Is this wrong? Depends on your perspective. Is it applicable? Absolutely. Is it kung fu? Yes, but evolved.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by First-Chevalier



What would a tiger master do if he were suddenly beset by a crane master? If he had another form to fallback on, say mantis or monkey, could he then coutner the crane master? If all the crane master has is crane, is he out in the cold when the tiger master changes style? Probably.

Sorry if this has already been said, but you've been watching too many Shaw Brothers movies. Systems do not fight, people do. When you master a system and yourself, you are able to adjust to the opponent. All complete systems cover defense against different types of opponents - agressive, slippery, whatever.

It's like a person who learns to fight with the left foot forward. If his opponent switches stances, will he do the same? Not if he knows what he's doing in that stance. If he knows what he is doing, he will be able to face an opponent in any stance, making necessary adjustments to tactics and target areas.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by templefist
Themeecer - I wouldnt want my teachers coming back to me saying they are getting heat for something one of their students is saying in a forum. It doesnt show lack of balls, it shows respect to keep his school out of this.

Well then said student should keep his trap shut. It isn't out of respect he doesn't list it, he has told me why he doesn't. He doesn't want to be attacked on here. Apparently he can dish it out but he can't take it.

[cho]

you see, martial arts were created for fighting. When they were created, the creators had a cause, be it to protect themselves from bandits, the Qing dynasty, or ruthless samurai.

to say martial arts are about health, etc. is marketing today, and they same about playing football. Now the only problem here is the same problem with the ten year old black belts. You have to admit that even though his self esteem is high, he would be crushed by any Kramer (anyone watch Seinfeld?).

the problem anti-SDers (myself included) and others have is the authenticity. We've discussed forms and all, but the fact is it's very difficult if not impossible to train a foundation in, say, tiger and crane simultaneously. Others taking TCMA have to spend lots of time just getting their body (muscle memory and all that) to move right. That's how you can "see" the differences between Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun, or to the point , whether someone moves like gongfu or karate.