Authenticity of styles & forms.

[Vyvial]

this of course depends on what your system's forms are meant for...

If the forms are considered "perfect" examples of your style or system, representing the movements and principals of the martial art and over time they are adapted or changed or whatever.... Then where is the true original Martial art?

Wouldn't the system be lost? Every generation would lose more and more until it bacame a husk of the former martial art.

Also who now is qualified to adapt these forms, who has the time to spend 8 or more hours everyday training, who can participate in battles with just hands and handheld weapons, who can get into fights and challenges without fear of the law and being shot? If the martial art is being adapted from sparring experience then what's it worth?

Look at karate in the seventies, there were a lot of guys sloppily beating the crap out of each other but there were no pads and they were pretty tough. Now look at it.... that is what will happen to your martial art in a short time if you let it.

anyway just a few of my thoughts on the subject.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Vyvial.

Some good poins there.

If the forms are considered "perfect" examples of your style or system, representing the movements and principals of the martial art and over time they are adapted or changed or whatever.... Then where is the true original Martial art?

The true martial art is in the principles of the style. The forms are merely a training tool and showcase a sample of what can be done.

My Sifu keep showing us alternate applications to moves from our forms that we never imagined could be done.
Also the form that he teaches is not the same for the beginner as it is for the advanced student.

Wouldn't the system be lost? Every generation would lose more and more until it bacame a husk of the former martial art.

Yes, it might.

Also who now is qualified to adapt these forms, who has the time to spend 8 or more hours everyday training, who can participate in battles with just hands and handheld weapons, who can get into fights and challenges without fear of the law and being shot? If the martial art is being adapted from sparring experience then what's it worth?

There are people that spend more than 8hrs a day on perfecting their art.
Most of those you will not find on the Web or in the yellow pages.

Arts can evolve and be further developed withou the need of challenges, law enforcement fears and being shot. There are many ways in which an art can be tested.

The rules of everyday life are still pretty much the same as they were 300yrs ago.

Look at karate in the seventies, there were a lot of guys sloppily beating the crap out of each other but there were no pads and they were pretty tough. Now look at it.... that is what will happen to your martial art in a short time if you let it.

Yes, Karate & MA in general in the west has devolved.
Go to Okinawan or Japan and you will find a very different karate and skill level.
Ever seen a takedown down in kendo or similar, they do exist and are still trained.

There are people and locations where the arts are preserved and advanced by people skilled enough to do so.
Like I said most of them you will have problems finding or even hearing about.

[Vyvial]

you have no arguments from me but I have a question....

"The true martial art is in the principles of the style." <--very true, but doesn't the forms pass on the principles? Tai Chi used to be a very down and dirty style, now for the most part with with some very good exceptions, it's not even a martial art but rather a health form. What do you think happened?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Vyvial
you have no arguments from me but I have a question....

"The true martial art is in the principles of the style." <--very true, but doesn't the forms pass on the principles?

To a degree only.
You can't train Jing in the solo form for this you need Tui Shou and weapons training.

Each style has it's own training curriculum and each part will supply a piece of puzzle that you need to see the whole art.

Tai Chi used to be a very down and dirty style, now for the most part with with some very good exceptions, it's not even a [I]martial[I/] art but rather a health form. What do you think happened?

Depends on which TJQ you are talking about competition, PRC or the traditional routines.

I think many teachers changed the emphasis of their TJQ teaching for a variety of reasons.
I know that there is also some form of quality control problem that has creeped into the TJQ scene(2yr Instructor courses, etc), which I think is common in teacher and not family transmitted arts.

Actually if you speak to most TJQ people they will tell you that the health benefits can only be fully realised if you train for the martial side.


So, IMO, a lot of people are sold health TJQ and happily are buying into a fantasy that has only limited benefits.
But than that is not what I call TJQ.

[Vyvial]

thanks for the educatin'

[GLW]

"Actually if you speak to most TJQ people they will tell you that the health benefits can only be fully realised if you train for the martial side."

Actually, the HEALTH benefits do not get much from the martial side of training. However, they DO benefit from Body Mechanics training (which DOES feed into the martial side as well).

Too many people try to include the body mechanics ONLY in the martial approach and let the non-martial side do what they want. To do this, you do NOT have Taijiquan. You are just doing something slowly to a sequence of movements.

In fact, to TRULY train the martial side of ANY style, there are a number of RISKS that enter into training that definitely go against health benefits.

Accidents happen more in two person training than single practice. The type of accidents can be life altering because they include things like knee injuries, falls, bruises, etc...

The saying from Chinese is that to learn to fight, one must first learn to eat bitter. This is NOT a health benefit.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

GLW.

No disagreement, like with anything if you want the benefits you got to take the risk.

[GLW]

Exactly..

One of the reasons I teach very few people applications...

They come in wanting to learn them...until they find out that first is the body conditioning for handling the mistakes...

I had a class of young guys a few years ago...they REALLY wanted to learn fighting.

After 4 classes and a number of bruises on them later...I was down to 2 students. The others had told the remaining two that it was too hard and painful (it was only a fraction of the level it should have been). I replied that if training was too painful, what was losing the fight going to be like...

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

GLW.

I know the feeling, we also got a few students that complain what we do is tough and our teachers are too harsh and demanding.

One guy that always gives me a good workout is our top-competitor, he really pushes you and corrects the smallest flaw in your execution and drills you till it is correct.