WCK Origin theories?

[yuanfen]

John W sez:

BTW, I know Columbus discovered America in 1492, but who discovered Canada?

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Now now John- that is bad history. New orld tribals discovered Columbus and some of them paid with their lives as a result.

Columbus did not discover Amarica nor did vasco da Gama discover India. My wife's folks and mine were around long long before that.

On Canada. Ojibway, Crees, and others roamed there too- the Inuits came in much later but long before the Europeans.

Recently, the Interior minister for Ontario denied an investigatio because he was too busy campaigning.... some time ago a police sniper picked off and shot an Indian who was protesting a land issue.

There are indeed different "his-tories".

[hunt1]

Alex- I wish to thank you. Just read the last several posts in this thread. You have given me more information about HFY than all the other posts in all the other threads. Keep up the good posts.

[yuanfen]

Alex sez-
I certainly DO NOT claim to be any authority on Chan Buddism, but I don't understand why Hendrik would take such offense at our system???
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Because- there are many different kinds of "buddhism". But strictly speaking pure Chan has disciplined methods of transmission- the fighting arts is not one of them.

Individual buddhists can do all sorts of things under the umbrella of buddhism and subjectively rationalize them.

Neither Chan epistemology, nor the Chan sutras advocate the development of martial arts let alone a specific martial art.

Monks on travels carried staves- being generally fit some could fend off an unexpected attack by man or beast.

The first Chan patriarch in China was the Boddhidharma. In his famous transmitted sermon- "Outline of Practice"- it is said:

"Many roads lead to the Path, but basically there are only two:reason and practice. To enter by reason means to realize the essence through instruction and to believe that all living things share the same true nature, which isn't apparent because it's shrouded by sensation and delusion...

To enter by practice refers to four all inclusive practices: suffering injustice, adapting to conditions, seeking nothing, and practicing the Dharma.""
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Hendrik IMO has correctly pointed out other buddhist and non buddhist influences in early wing chun.

The richness of buddhism can be used for various utilitarian reasons and intentions- the samurai sword and killing, warrior "monks", attacking the Qing, betraying the Ming, falun gong, sokkagokai, touring shaolin monks
marketing , wealth, cultism, militarism, patriotism. shorinji kempo among other activities.

joy

[yuanfen]

Great job Rene in highlighting Hendrik's origin thesis, Hendrik is doing an amazing and dedicated job in pursuing his origin thesis.
But much remains. Some thoughts-

I have no problem with different bio-mechanical approaches to kung fu- or interesting myths and lineage histories. Having said that --- I think that there is much to be done for Hendrik's thesis to become anywhere near a complete history of wing chun- beyond the Cho lineage. I have no problem in seeing some common features between what Hendrik does and Ip Man wing chun as I understand it. But there are differences that could be attributed to the long standing separate paths.

Chi sao, tan sao, footwork issues come to mind. These might be developmental differences due to the separate paths.
However lurking in mind honestly are the pics that I saw of Wang Kew Kit(sp?) supposedly a Cho practitioner...he was doing lots of things (leaning, weighting, karate like moves) that seem very far removed from wing chun.

I have no problem with the Ng Mui myth- myths are informative
concentrated capsules on how people think or thought. And I can see Ng Mui evolving and ergo in the development different names emrging for "styles" with commom features.

Fujian is a ways from Sichuan and the likely reason or pattern of migration could be more fleshed out- however speculatively in order to buttress the
crane-emei 12 synthesis becoming clearer.


Passing thoughts on a complex puzzle.

joy

[Phenix]

Hi Rene, Joy, JOhn,


After the Sun Tzu qoute, I qoute Shurangama sutra with specifics.






A----------------------------------------------

Philosophy :

Example:

29. The skillful tactician may be likened to the
shuai-jan. Now the shuai-jan is a snake that is found
in the ChUng mountains. Strike at its head, and you
will be attacked by its tail; strike at its tail, and you
will be attacked by its head; strike at its middle,
and you will be attacked by head and tail both. ---Sun Tzu.



implementation :


Example:


"Gum Tau Gutt Mai" (he presses your head you lift your tail) "Gum Chong Gan Bil/Pil Bong Folk" (press the center shoot out bong or folk (compare this to the sun tzu qout above)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------







Technology : Chi Sau, Sensing, Awareness.

Let See what we have in Shurangama Sutra....


B------------------------------------------------------

The Shurangama Sutra
----- Twenty -five Means to Enlightenment.


Sutra:

We first heard the dharma and left the home-life under
King of Awesome Sound Buddha. Once, when it was time for
the Sangha to bathe, I followed the custom and entered the
bathhouse. Suddenly I awakened to the fact that water does not
wash away the dust, nor does it cleanse the body. At that point,
between the two, I became peaceful, and I attained the state of
there being nothing at all.


To this day, I have never forgotten that past experience.
Having left home with the Buddha, I have gone beyond study.
That Buddha named me Bhadrapala. Wonderful touch was
revealed, and I accomplished the position of the Buddha¡¦s
disciple.


The Buddha asks about perfect penetration. As I have been
certified to it, touch is the superior means.



Sutra:

When I first left home to follow the Buddha and enter the
way, I often heard the Thus Come One explain that there is
nothing in this world that brings happiness. Once, when I was
begging in the city, I was reflecting on this Dharma-door and
did not notice a poisonous thorn on the road until it had *****ed
my foot. My entire body experienced physical pain, but my
mind also had an awareness: though it was aware of strong pain
and recognized the feeling of pain, I knew that in my pure
heart, there was neither pain nor awareness of pain.

I also thought, ¡¥Is it possible for one body to have two
awarenesses?¡¦ Having reflected on this for a while, my body
and mind were suddenly empty. After twenty-one days, my
outflows disappeared. I accomplished Arhatship and received
certification in person and a confirmation that I had realized
the level beyond study.

The Buddha asks about perfect penetration. As I have been
certified to it, purifying the awareness and forgetting the body
is the superior method.



-------------------------------------



Thus, Technically, I don't believe in generazation of Damo's Chan or Northern or Southern Shao Lin CHAN which "mention something but has no specific at all. "
Specific can be found.
We know where the "Technology" comes from. IMHO.
Get a copy of Shurangama Sutra. IT is worthed if one is interested in those cultivation "Technology."


These all are not LanKa or Diamond Sutra "based. "
Thus, Can't just link this to DAMO's CHAN.

Remember my analogy of directly halt the operating system or Loading and un loading the interface of Computer?


I understood and respect how some likes to or believe thier base system is from Chan. And that is great.
Just suggest that one has to go through the related sutras and get a real Buddhist monk sifu. Bottom line, Chan/ Esoteric Buddhism is not a book reading subject. It needs transmission.... Just Can't learn it from reading.

Anything which makes WCK and the WCner better and more advance is great . So, for some may be instead of view me as always attacking, when I did pure technical discussion. why not view me as pointing a direction for everyone to be better?

[yuanfen]

Notes on Hendrik's post (still in China?):
After the Sun Tzu qoute, I qoute Shurangama sutra with specifics.






A----------------------------------------------

Philosophy :

Example:

29. The skillful tactician may be likened to the
shuai-jan. Now the shuai-jan is a snake that is found
in the ChUng mountains. Strike at its head, and you
will be attacked by its tail; strike at its tail, and you
will be attacked by its head; strike at its middle,
and you will be attacked by head and tail both. ---Sun Tzu.

((Sun Tzu's conception informs good kung fu- but particularly informs wing chun. Some key wing chun kuen kuit follows from Sun Tzu))



implementation :


Example:


"Gum Tau Gutt Mai" (he presses your head you lift your tail) "Gum Chong Gan Bil/Pil Bong Folk" (press the center shoot out bong or folk (compare this to the sun tzu qout above)


((hendrik: is that a Cho family kuit? Do you have a tan concept in
Cho family?))
-------------------------------------------------------------------------







Technology : Chi Sau, Sensing, Awareness.

Let See what we have in Shurangama Sutra....


B------------------------------------------------------

The Shurangama Sutra
----- Twenty -five Means to Enlightenment.


Sutra:

We first heard the dharma and left the home-life under
King of Awesome Sound Buddha. Once, when it was time for
the Sangha to bathe, I followed the custom and entered the
bathhouse. Suddenly I awakened to the fact that water does not
wash away the dust, nor does it cleanse the body. At that point,
between the two, I became peaceful, and I attained the state of
there being nothing at all.


To this day, I have never forgotten that past experience.
Having left home with the Buddha, I have gone beyond study.
That Buddha named me Bhadrapala. Wonderful touch was
revealed, and I accomplished the position of the Buddha¡¦s
disciple.

(( The refinement of the concept of touch, listening , and ting jing-
certainly follows from this. However, most who dont read the sutras may need to follow-less is more- in refining wing chun practice and minimizing muscle IMO))


The Buddha asks about perfect penetration. As I have been
certified to it, touch is the superior means.



Sutra:

When I first left home to follow the Buddha and enter the
way, I often heard the Thus Come One explain that there is
nothing in this world that brings happiness. Once, when I was
begging in the city, I was reflecting on this Dharma-door and
did not notice a poisonous thorn on the road until it had *****ed
my foot. My entire body experienced physical pain, but my
mind also had an awareness: though it was aware of strong pain
and recognized the feeling of pain, I knew that in my pure
heart, there was neither pain nor awareness of pain.

((This can be empirically proven- from fire walking to the self immolation of Vietnamese monks in protest. In fighting "overcoming" pain is important))


-------------------------------------



Thus, Technically, I don't believe in generazation of Damo's Chan or Northern or Southern Shao Lin CHAN which "mention something but has no specific at all. "
Specific can be found.
We know where the "Technology" comes from. IMHO.
Get a copy of Shurangama Sutra. IT is worthed if one is interested in those cultivation "Technology."

((Hendrik- unfortunately without specific guidance or very
clear two way communication- the Surangama can sound like gibberish and be replaced unfortunately by a follow the leader
ethic or a cult.
Further, there is always the danger of solipsism- of mistaking/projecting one's subjective understanding as the only real world.
Live or dead- Schroedinger's(sp?) cat is indeed a cat not a dog
or a dream! A punch is a punch!!)) Joy

[yuanfen]

One other point Hendrik--- when you say:

Bottom line, Chan/ Esoteric Buddhism is not a book reading subject. It needs transmission.... Just Can't learn it from reading
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(Previous;y you have made a distinction between Chan
and esoteric Buddhism-
linking the latter with the fusion of fujian and emei in wing chun...
here above you have put Chan slash esoteric buddhism- probably needs clarification ...??))

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Once again, this message board is NOT a Chan Buddhism forum. Lengthy discussions of what Chan is/isn't, etc. are not appropriate for this forum.

[ZIM]

Yeah! And everyone knows that Wing Chun is Confucian, anyway. I mean, if you're all not squabbling for the 'Mandate of Heaven', who is?

Ok, that was a joke...

...note to Hendrik:

I believe that someone/thing was mentioned: Miu Shan? Is this a person or the mountain you refer to? [Classical Chinese is kinda weird that way]

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by Sandman2[Wing Chun]
Once again, this message board is NOT a Chan Buddhism forum. Lengthy discussions of what Chan is/isn't, etc. are not appropriate for this forum.

What a strange coincidence.....Sandman2's 108th is about NOT Chan Buddhism!


JKW

[Phenix]

Hi Joy,

((Sun Tzu's conception informs good kung fu- but particularly informs wing chun. Some key wing chun kuen kuit follows from Sun Tzu))


The uniqueness of using SHAPE and MOMENTUM dynamic is very clear in Sun Tzu.





"Gum Tau Gutt Mai" (he presses your head you lift your tail) "Gum Chong Gan Bil/Pil Bong Folk" (press the center shoot out bong or folk (compare this to the sun tzu qout above)


((hendrik: is that a Cho family kuit? Do you have a tan concept in
Cho family?))


The Kuit above is general in different place include Hong Kong. If memory serve, there is one WCK movie in the 1970 even uses these kuit.

Today's TAN is a combination of a number of different concept in Yik Kam WCK.

For example, interm of physical location, Tan's palm end at heart level. and Chao's palm end at solder lever. Which both was named Tan in general WCK today....ect.




((Hendrik- unfortunately without specific guidance or very
clear two way communication- the Surangama can sound like gibberish and be replaced unfortunately by a follow the leader
ethic or a cult.
Further, there is always the danger of solipsism- of mistaking/projecting one's subjective understanding as the only real world.))

That is true.
Chan/esoteric Buddhism,
Even Say, Sun Tzu, one has to learn from teacher. Otherwise, one will inteprete the text with one's own level which can be way off. As we see in Spiral Dynamic, that people in level 1 will base on level 1 as thier lense to view the world.



Zim,

it is Miu Shun.

[Phenix]

Sensing, Antena, Awareness, connection, Communication?




---------------------Antena and POwer to power connection?

With Fujianess art around 1850, Bridge or kiu was defined as fore arm.
Join or Jit was defined as elbow or knee.


thus, there are 4 kuit for bridge status
and various of bridge technics such as 10...

the 4 kuits are:

1, If there is bridge then one cross the bridge on top. ( the key is cross)

2, if the is no bridge then one adding the bridge. ( the key is add)


3, Seeing bridge thus breaking bridge. ( the key is break)


4, Stick at bridge not leaving bridge. ( the key is stick or Chi as in Chi sau)


-----------------Go wireless, Awareness, communication, Information gathering, communication jamming?


AWARENESS is very important. AWARENESS is not limited to physical stick or CHI, or one Bridge to sense. As said,
The physical can be broken contact but the AWARENESS/ intention never broke down.

Thus, another component beside the physical, location, speed is about COMMUNICATION.

One can brake the opponent down via force or one can brake the opponents' interio COMMUNICATION down to direct or indirectly breaking the DYnamic Structure. (VEry High TECH of this imformation era )


As said in Sun Tzu:

15. Those who were called skillful leaders of old knew
how to drive a wedge between the enemy's front and rear;
to prevent co-operation between his large and small divisions;
to hinder the good troops from rescuing the bad,.....

[PaulH]

Good post, Hendrik! You're really jamming now. Ha! Ha!

[Phenix]

Hi Paul,

Now you know why it is called : PILLOWING the BRIDGE? Or JUM KIU? or Jamming ... (by the way how is your pillow training? )

See there are four ways. 1, go power routh, Take the battery off. 2, go communication routh, screw up the signal. and the 3, go center to center routh, reset the cell phone's gsm id card. 4, break the structure routh, slam the cell phone to floor. .

From Sun Tzu to Surangama awareness to white crane to emei to cell phone

When everything put/fuse together,
Here is Wing Chun and her center to center connection

[PaulH]

The four routes are good! In my cellular war, I use just 2 options. One: He tries to reach but can't quite pin my cell number down. Two: Regardless of whether he can reach me or not on my old cell, I just use a new cell to reach him. He never really connects either way! See Ya!

P.S. Speaking wirelessly, this is just a variation of doing your center to center method. As to the pillow, to hold or not to hold that is the question! All is pillowing as it should be.