Opinions on Challenges

[Ryu]

Well hey like I said. The guy is responsible for what happens to him.
See there? I think the jock was incredibly incredibly rude for doing that. If that is what most people think "challenging" is then I'd say the MA community does NOT need that. Very childish.
As far as the instructor's attitude, well he ignored him at first, and took him out when the guy wouldn't let up. Shouting like that probably scared the guy off a bit too.
No one really wants to fight someone crazy..

Ryu

[Fish of Fury]

"then again I'm not a teacher" - Ryu


hey Ryu, didn't you have an old phase 1 instructorship under paul vunak ? is that any good anymore?

AHAHAHA AHAHA AAAAARGH!


sorry,
i suk

[Kristoffer]

yes

[shaolinboxer]

I don't really approve of inter-school challanges....it endangers the school the challenge takes place in.

What I do approve of and infact think is absolutely necessary is all students should be able to challenge their instructor by resisting his/her technique within reason (meaning not flying into a sloppy berserker rage).

In the school I train, our instructor generally likes to remain quiet. If you are thinking, man I could just stand there an flex or throw a punch at his face and he'd be in trouble, you may ask him to demonstrate why that is not possible. Sometimes he will walk through the dojo and look at every one, offering them the opportunity to challenge him. It is a general rule that the harder you resist, the more difficult it will be to absorb the technique (I learned that one day when I really tried to bear down on him with both hand on his right wrist, the impact with the mat injured my hand and made the whole room get reeeeeeeally fuzzy for a while).

Challenging one anothers technique should be a gradual process. It does noone any good to resist a beginners technique everytime. But how can you develop real technical skill and strength if your partner is always cooperating?

I have seen guys walk into schools and laugh at the classes and offer challanges. None of these situations turned into fights. If you are very very advanced, it must be tempting to accept. However, that same level of advancement should teach a person why they should not accept.

[red5angel]

It seems like most people look at it sensibly. When I suggested this, and I want to reiterate this, I wasn't looking for every martial arts 'superstar' out there to wander around town challeneging everyone they could to test thier abilities, or ego, or what have you. Our community needs some sort of control over who is teahcing and who isn't.
this is how I picture your 'average' challenge: You, as a sifu yourself, or an advanced student, wander into a local kwoon that has just opened up. You wait to get the chance to talk to the sifu, find out about his background, maybe sit in on the class. Afterwards, if there is a way of testing his skill other than sparring, like touch hands, push hands, chi sau, or whatever, then ask to do so with the sifu or his best student. Otherwise, ask to spar, respectfully, with either. After the fact, thank the sifu/student for the oppurtunity to learn from them and leave. Then think about what you experienced and let the rest of the community know what you have found.
If you just want to test your own skill, well, find another martial artist who is interested in the same and set up a play date. This forum may be a good place to find those people.
I wouldn't recommend:
being disrespectful, there is no need, no matter what the sifus actual level of ability is.
challenge a sifu in front of his class. He may be one of those instructors who can teach better then he can perform. In this case you just want to make sure he knows his stuff, and can atleast do the basics. To show him up in front of his class by beating him because you are younger, faster, better, what have you, is disrespectful and unnecessary. Then it is more a comment on your ability then thiers.
Challenging students. If a sifu doesn't want to meet your challenge, right away, be persistant, stop by every once in a while and offer again. If he offers you a challenge with one of his students, then take it, but it would be disrespectful to approach his students as they may not be a good reckoning on his own ability.
Looking for a fight, this is supposed ot be a test of someones ability to teach, not his abliity to defend himself. If you dont understand what this means then you shouldnt be challenging anyone.

[Suntzu]

guy open a school in the local strip mall. Down the street at the other strip mall is another school of similar(maybe not) style. An instructor ffrom the old school pays the new school a visit after the last night class. The 2 chit-chat about this and that, find out they have smilar backgrounds, been at some of the same tourney's fought some of the same guys. "let's throw on the pads and see what's up," say the established instructor. they spar for a few, it's soon over. one guy is a fraud one is the real deal, or they are both equally good. no one got hurt, maybe. friendly challenge is good.

[rubthebuddha]

friendly challenge is good, yes.

but remember that we are all part of a group of people that are notorious for having huge egos, bad attitudies and very narrow opinions. what's worse is that little is done to correct this in some of the more well-known people. add that these egos are rarely actually tested, and that all the bull**** that has negatively affected the martial arts is often more prevalent than the positive stuff.

take the emin boztepe and william cheung feud. originally started as a feud between leung ting and william cheung, boztepe took it on himself to do something about it and challenged cheung. the sick attempt at a challenge match the two had settled little, as both sides argue that they were victorious. since the video footage offered doesn't show anyone all that successful in defeating the other, we're back to square one.

flash forward to the present, and boztepe and cheung still don't like each other, 15 years later. i've even heard that boztepe has renewed his challenge to cheung, a fact that impresses me further knowing that emin is about 40 and cheung is pushing, if not past, 60.

now both these men are expert students in their styles - emin has his ebmas (no LT/KK vs. EB comments, please) and cheung has his twc - and both are supposedly icons and role models for their students. the question is, what role are they modeling? that of the humble instructor who cares more for his students and their growth, or that of the flighty instructor who constantly has something to prove and seeks out conflict so they can prove it?

again, i like the idea of challenges - they're a great way to practice what you preach and really test what you have. i'm just not all that confident that most martial artists are mature enough to handle themselves when their reputation and pride are on the line.

[myosimka]

If the world wwere full of friendly challenges, they'd be great. But that's not always the way it works out. Remember the most agressive student you ever had? You know the one. About 6 months of experience elsewhere. With some guy into S.C.A.R.S. or some other 'realistic training'. And everytime you explain anything it's followed with "But couldn't you stomp the knee and cripple him as you drove a knifehand into this eyes? That'll cause him to drop so you can get a decent rear naked choke and break the neck simultaneously." (Dude, he just shook my hand! Seriously, that happened in a class demonstration on wrist locks and responses) Well he learned that attitude from someone.

When someone walks into your dojo/kwoon/dojang for the first time and challenges, you never know. They could be the taichi instructor just looking to push hands, they could be the BJJ guy looking for light rolling with submission, they could be the guy that the police forced to close down a scholl and leave town following his 3rd assault charge in 6 months(true story 'bout that guy)

And all it takes is starting friendly on one side and the other deciding it's a streetfight and things get nasty in a matter of seconds. While I have pretty good coverage, I am liable for what goes on in that room. I love to trade techniques and workout with other MA system guys. But I don't spar on the first night with them. Ever. I don't know if I need to tone it down or crank it up til I've watched them a few times.


As to testing/proving my skills. I invite instructors from all types of schools to do seminar work in my class. We even do round robin nights where 3-4 guest sifus/senseis/rollers/badasses/etc. are in there.(That class is a blast by the way!!) My students get to see my training and someone elses and decide for themselves. For some the Krav Maga route is too violent, for some aikido is not effective enough. Would me kicking the crap out of an aikidoka or vice versa and same with krav maga stylist prove anything? Doubt it. The other big thing I do is encourage my students to go attend other classes. Funny thing is-that attitude keeps more students than it costs.

There is a rival school here(ain't it always the way) constantly talking trash. I have invited them to come in and back it up or meet at a local gym, whatever. No response. Have invited them to do the seminar route. No response. Have encouraged my students to visit their class and take it if interests them more. They've done this on numerous occasions and 3 times now the students told me without my asking that they were saying what I taught was crap. Though they've never been in my class. Funny thing is the students made up their own minds. No challenge necessary.


Gotta admit, it's **** tempting though. But then again, what I have in mind in the dark of night isn't exactly a friendly challenge either. So I guess I'd have to say I think challeneges are sort of silly. I am all in favor of crosstraining and the exchange of ideas. All for testing things out in the ring, with friends or NHB. But I hope that the days of challenges are mostly gone.

[Suntzu]

well that goes to prove maybe I have a slightly swollen dome. And true maybe most people aren't as openly friendly as I. And also spotlighted my naivete. But I would HOPE, top level MA's would have a lil' more class and restraint to just have a friendly exchange thru the touching of hands. but once again, i am a lil naive, and probably would fall victim to the knee smash knife hand combo during a courtesy bow.

I was at a tourny and seen 2 guys beat the crap out of each other and shared a hug and sat together and chatted about the experience. Same tourny, a guy caught a bloody nose and afterwards ran to the locker room bichin a fit and wouldn't accept the other guys apology. maybe schools should be a lil more selective about there students. off topic i know, but maybe that cryin dude will oneday be an instructor.

[red5angel]

Well, as we all should realize, nothing is ever perfect. Rubthebuddha, and Myosimka, you both have very valid and very good points. Its true, not all things can go the way we plan, and we have the risk of getting hurt or hurting someone when we do what we do, in play or whatever.
I share Suntzus' opinion in that I hope most martial artist are respectful and mature enough to understand what we are trying to discuss here, that we need a way of maintaining quality in our training and in our society, Martial Arts. Right now, we have no governing body, some systems have one way, some have others, and some have none. The challenge system can help to keep things honest, and I hope promote fellowship and responsibility amongst our martial arts brothers and sisters.
Myosimka, your point on liability and all of that is well taken, but we dont always sign a contract stating we wont sue, when we spar. You may not know who you are dealing with, and obviously your will is your own, and if someone who gives you a bad feeling walks in, you have the right to turn him away or down.
I see this as more of an oppurtunity to bring martial artist closer together as a community. That way I can walk into a karate/TKD dojo, and spar with a few people to test my skill against thier style, etc.... but also to maintain a certain level of respect and ability amongst sifu. There are a lot of people out there saying they know a lot more then they do.

[Suntzu]

there have been many a times when I have driven past a school and wondered if I'm as good as they are and vice versa and there is only one way to tell. Sad, that I may look like some a-hole for wanting to play.

as a student, ofcourse, I'm far from a master.

[KC Elbows]

I've thought a lot about this, and I feel that, when I am a teacher, I will take challenges. However, I will only take them from serious fighters wishing to test their style and my own, and, in order to challenge me, I will expect the following(you guys are probably going to think I'm nuts):

-The challenger and I will set a date. In the morning of that date, we will get together and stretch.
-Then, we will sit for tea, and talk about our lives, our families and experiences, our fighting experiences, our goals, etc.
-We will then have the challenge, with seconds, just to keep everyone honest.
-Afterwards, regardless of who wins, we will attend to our potential injuries, and each person will be expected to point out the strengths of the other.
-Finally, we go someplace good for lunch, my treat.

If someone isn't willing to plan all that, then they shouldn't waste my time.

So, am I crazy?

[Dark Knight]

myosimka did a good job at explaining it. I have fought many people from other styles and it proves nothing.

Also when egos are involved you never know what the other person will do. I fought on guy who was trying to impress his student by fighting with me. he was a 5th in Ju-Jitsu and I had just gotten my 5th in Kempo. When he could not submit me he went to fishhooks. I grabed him by the groin and he released me. in the end no one won but we had fun (I had a back ground in JJ so I was not doing something I hadnt been trained for)

In another school I came in to fight with the students and the instructor decided it was a good night for full contact. What was suppose to be a friendly sparring session turned into a slug fest. The students just got to see to guys trading shots, it proved nothing.

In a challenge what may be agreed upon rules can change and you find yourself fighting for you life or taking one.

This does not prove that one is better qualified to teach, or knows his information. Its not a quality control method.

Challenges may sound cool or look good in the movies, but when it comes time, win or lose you will still go home hurt against a good fighter.

I have had many injuries while fighting, countless bloody noses, black eyes, Ive had both shoulders out a couple of times and continued to fight. (And these were friends) Finding out how good you are isnt always fun. (But I love it still)

[Laughing Cow]

Who here as observed one, taken part in on?

[themeecer]

Do you mean within the dojo or dojo against dojo? I've heard stories of dojo wars but never have taken part in one. My teacher did have a 'candle burning' for some challengers that wanted him out of the town he was teaching in.