Martial arts expert kills two raiders

[brassmonkey]

Martial arts expert kills two raiders
Philip Willan in Rome Monday October 13, 2003 The Guardian

A Chinese martial arts expert was in custody yesterday after turning the tables on four burglars armed with knives, killing two of them and seriously wounding a third. The 28-year-old man, known as "the doctor" for his practice of acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine, managed to seize one of the two knives carried by his assailants and saw off the entire group with the ferocity of his reaction.

Magistrates in the central Italian town of Empoli are now seeking to establish whether his self-defence constituted an excessive use of force.

The butchery, worthy of a Quentin Tarantino film, began shortly before midnight on Friday when the four men knocked at the apartment of a Chinese hairdresser in the centre of Empoli.

The hairdresser, her assistant and "the doctor", who operated from the same premises, were reportedly overpowered and tied up before the group, all thought to be in their 20s and 30s, ransacked the apartment.

Disappointed by their meagre booty, the attackers allegedly threatened to rape the two women unless they told them where the rest of their money was hidden.

At this point the doctor managed to free himself, seize a knife from one of the aggressors and deliver a series of lethal stab wounds.

Investigators found the body of one man, who had been stabbed in the heart, sprawled on the staircase and another man bleeding to death in the street from a wound to his leg. A third man is recovering in hospital from a punctured lung.

The doctor was found crouching in the entrance to the building with cuts to his shoulder, face and hands.

Investigators are trying to determine whether he inflicted the injuries while defending himself inside the apartment, or hunted down the burglars after they had fled.

[brassmonkey]

any of our Italiano Kung Fu brothers out there have more info on the good Doctor here?

[Chinwoo-er]

one against three

I don't understand how that is not self defence. Cause if you don't disable two of them for good, even in a one against two odd, the other would have plenty of oppotunity to retaliate on your while you are subdueing the other.

Can someone enlighten me here ??

[PHILBERT]

Chinwoo-Er, cultural differences. People in Italy think differently than say the Chinese, Americans, Australians, American v.2 or the British.

Look at Britain, where it is illegal to own a gun. People are using illegal guns to defend themselves there, yet they get in more trouble than there would-be attackers.

[Judge Pen]

In any modern culture, if he hunted them down it would not be self-defense.

Some states require you to try to run away before you can defend yourself. Most southern states do not.

[Tak]

In any modern culture, if he hunted them down it would not be self-defense.

Obviously we don't have all the facts, but from the meager location details, it seems as though he did not "hunt them down." The attackers were found at different distances from the crime scene, varying by the degree of injury. This seems to suggest that the altercations took place inside the apartment, and that the attackers attempted to flee after being wounded - the one who was stabbed in the heart only made it to the stairwell, the one who was stabbed in the leg made it all the way out to the street before bleeding out. The fourth one probably sustained minor or no wounds and was able to escape completely. Too bad we don't have location info on Mr. Punctured-lung.

[Tak]

On another note, kudos to the doctor! It would be interesting to learn what style(s) he practices.

[Chinwoo-er]

But those boys where threatening to rape the two ladies. When should a man fight back ? When they finally inserted their big (or little) johns ?

Not to take a crack at ya Phil, but I think this can't be seen in the same light as your british example. (1) it wasn't guns in which was illegal, (2) the only weapons that was used was actually from the attackers

[fa_jing]

Kung Fu. It's good for ya.

[Radhnoti]

Judge Pen - "In any modern culture, if he hunted them down it would not be self-defense."

I know you're right. But, if he killed a few of them and let the others escape...how many nights would he lie awake wondering if the escapees were finally ready to come back and get even?

What are the chances that the escapees, if caught ...taking nothing... only having made verbal threats...MAYBE being charged with some form of kidnapping for tying them up would do any serious time?

I just don't have a lot of faith in ...well...any Justice system I've seen operate. No offense meant to you JP. I'm willing to bet you're one of the good ones.

A bad situation, and I'm glad that it had the best outcome possible for the good doctor. Kudos to him and I hope actual justice prevails.

[Judge Pen]

Rad,

You're absolutely right. What's legal and what right at the time are very often miles apart. In that moment, I probably would have chased them down (assuming that's what he did) because, in my state of mind, the threat would still be imminent. A prosecutor, jury, and judge probably wouldn't agree.

[kungfuyou]

My feelings on this subject are like this. Once you threaten someone's life in my presence, you are not only threatening them, you are threatening mine. At that point YOU have lost all rights as an civilian because you acted heinously (??) threating another human beings life. That being said, why if acting in self defense should we be punished for taking another persons life if yours was threatened first, as long it was in self defence for preserving yours and another persons life? As in the case of the good dr. here.

Why should they (bad guys) be protected from the law when they were the ones that broke it in the first place? It makes no sense to me. The threat is not just at that moment and when they leave it's gone, like Radnhoti said:

how many nights would he lie awake wondering if the escapees were finally ready to come back and get even?

. So you know have to leave in fear for possibly the rest of your life now?? How is that fair!?

Sorry for the rant, but like others here, I feel justice is hard to believe in when it's failed the innocent and helpless too many times!!

[Radhnoti]

JP - "A prosecutor, jury, and judge probably wouldn't agree."

You're probably right. I did read an article the other day that I found interesting about "jury nullification" though. The article contends that the purpose of the jury then, as now, was not to be score keepers for the prosecution and the defense. Juries were put in place as a safety betwen the people and the state, meant not only to bring criminals to justice but also to keep people safe from bad laws and laws applied unfairly.
It also states that many of the founding fathers wrote on the importance of the individual voting his conscience, even when it flew in the face of the letter of the law.
It contends that a jury nullifying a bad law is a jury speaking up AGAINST bad laws or situations to which the law should not apply.

I've served on juries before, and this was CERTAINLY not the way anything was presented to us...the impression given was the the LAW was all important and we were just deciding whether/how much it had been broken.

An interesting website about this topic:

http://fija.org/

What's your take on jury nullification JP? I know if I were in the good doctor's position...and I had tracked the scum down...I'd make sure they had a grasp of the concept.

[Vyvial]

wow, if you look at the link it says he did Wing Chun.

[GreyMystik]

unfortunately jury nullification is pretty difficult to find these days; prosecutors pretty much drill into the heads of jurors something to the effect of it being their "duty" to bring someone to justice etc etc etc so i'd say good luck going that route.