Strike First in Taijiquan?

[taijiquan_student]

In Taijiquan, you never(or almost never) strike first. You wait for the opponent to come to you(strike you), then you take what they give you(deflect), and send it right back(strike them). Of course this is a simplification of taiji, but you know what I mean.
My question is, in a real life/street situation, even though it is against most basic taiji principles to initiate the attack/fight, would it be a good idea to strike first if you knew there would probably be a fight.
Example: Three people close in on you with knives or just barehanded, and try to back you up.
It is late and no one is around. They obviously aren't just after your wallet. If you know they will hurt you, would you take them out before they actually went ahead and attacked you?
I probably would if it was that clear they meant business. But, especially in Taijiquan, you want the opponent to come to you, so you can asses there skill, weaknesses, and give them what they give you.
What are some of you guys' ideas on this. Would you initiate the attack if you thought they would actually attack you?

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[Nexus]

You are making the concept too complicated for yourself. More important then thinking about who is going to strike first, the taiji emphasizes that you must relax. Relax and strike when you need to. In the situation you presented, no matter what we tell you here, you will respond as you must in order to survive. If you are relaxed, you will have a higher chance of doing so.

- Nexus

[Sam Wiley]

If three guys surround and corner you, then they have initiated the fight, which is a bit different in my eyes than initiating an attack, but they have started it.

In any case, the Internal Arts have many training methods that teach us to fight against more than one opponent, and the moves and techniques in the forms assume that we have been surrounded by at least two people. It's a very bad situation when you get surrounded by people with knives. Things get a bit more complicated.

You might want to train for something like this by actually having yourself surrounded by three partners empty handed, taking out the one who moves first and running straight past him for safety, and then step it up to training with markers or rubber knives. Markers might be better so you can see if and where one of the others might get you or how your technique failed. Just try to get away with as few wounds as possible and in the least vital places if possible. Then maybe make it random, and lastly having two attack at once so you can train knife defense against two people. I suggest running to be the end of the drill every time.

The Filipino martial arts have excellent knife defense drills that you may want to look at and possible find the parallel or same techniques in your Taiji.

*********

[fiercest tiger]

just have an offensive mindset not defensive!

why cant you strike 1st? who said you cannot strike 1st?

look they may attack 1st but you strike 1st... :mad:

classic's huh!

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http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
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[taijiquan_student]

Thanks for the suggestions, Sam. The markers are a great idea. I never really thought about using anything other than fake knives, or something like that. Someone in class asked my teacher about multiple opponents, and he said you can't really fight more than one person at once. You can only fight one person at a time. He got three of us to attack him(barehanded), and basically there was a lot of fast footwork(and running), and throwing us into each other so only one of us was fighting him at once.

Tiger--

Having an offensive mindset would be necessary when fighting in a life or death situation, but when the fight hasn't started yet, couldn't having that offensive mindset possibly make you start a fight that might not occured if you had waited or done something else? I might think this wouldn't happen, but it crossed my mind.
Could you please explain more "they may attack 1st but you strike 1st"? Do you mean if they are punching and you see it coming, you strike them before their strike gets to you?
--T.S.

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[This message was edited by Taijiquan Student on 10-14-01 at 07:24 PM.]

[fiercest tiger]

yes strike them 1st as they strike you, even though they started 1st. most people freeze because there taught the wrong mindset(defence) self defence is really the wrong word to use, because it subconsciously it registers as a block and move thought. so i never say defence and i never say block! no such thing as a block, it will get you hurt and again sets the wrong mindset. try smashing instead of blocking, see what your mindset is like?

you can also use plastic coke bottles cut in half and make them look like broken bottles, so some edges with scratch you, pens are good but again mindset isnt close to the real thing, either is a plastic bottle, but it does scratch you up abit. just my thoughts... ;)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[taijiquan_student]

thanks.

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[David]

I never thought of using plastic bottles - doh!

With the rubber knives, you can line the bladed edge in lipstick each time. Always ask permission before borrowing lipstick...

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[Repulsive Monkey]

If your Taiji skills are good then DON@T strike first. In your response your response may end up landing on them first but don't initiate firts. If this is the case then your Tung Jin is slightly obscured by the fact that you've done all the initiating and you haven'y been totally aware of what your assailants intentions are (I know this sounds a little stupid if they have knives out at the ready). I do go along with the idea that they have initiated it with knives out, but it's also a matter of waiting for the first intent to manifest too. I would be very weary in initiating anything that a) I didn't have control over and b) anything I couldn't finish off (almost the same thing).

[DrunkenMonkey]

Generally you can't really strike first with a repressive movement signature to Taijiquan, but I mean, just because your instructor tells you that you can't doesn't mean that you're all o a sudden physically barred from doing so.

Use your head.

"****ed be the day that befalls us in a most hostile manner that shall compromise our Country, and ****ed be the great lengths at which are required of to stir our Patriotism." - Anonymous

[Kaitain(UK)]

then ask at e-budo.com - the Karate guys have been pondering this for centuries, there're a few famous Karateka that have written about it as well. Definitely where I got my approach from.

I take the approach that if I feel threatened (and I believe you know this instinctively - I certainly do) then I am already reacting. Initiation in my mind does not entail thumping someone - it means starting the situation.

If you wait for someone to make an aggressive movement towards you then you may lose. They created the situation, therefore they have already placed you under attack. Your job as an MA is to ascertain what sort of threat they are and what response is appropriate.

If three guys have got knives then you have to get away - if that requires severely injuring one or all of them then so be it. Just make sure you're not there when the cops arrive.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Kaitain(UK)]

http://www.geoffthompson.com/Guest_W...ethy_page3.htm

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[fiercest tiger]

thats what i was also trying to say, offensive mindset allows you to be in control even before the fight, not just during the fight.

also guys you can use a entry technique to set up your 1st strike. never sit back ready..never!!

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[dooder]

Run. A teacher of mine called it strategic retreat.

[Ralek]

I struck first against he Taijiquan instructor. I just threw a few jabs and then backed off and he followed me right into a left hook and then he collapsed.

I am the Grand Ultimate Fist