Need Help for Question posed to me: Is CMA inferior or ineffective??

[Thomas Chen]

Hi guys

There was this fellow, lets call him Q, who had posted some interesting comments on the current state of Chinese martial arts on another forum. He views CMA very negatively. As I am not knowledgeable enough to ascertain the validity or accuracy of his opinions or conclusions, I would want to listen to everybody's opinions on these comments:

_____________________


Q's comments:

1. The fact that the vast majority of kung-fu exponents don't even engage in free-sparring (and this is acknowledged by people within the CMA community....

2. The emphasis that is often placed on the unproven and fantastical, as opposed to sound combative principles and techniques.

3. The results of the two famous tournaments that took place between kung-fu exponents and Thai boxers, in the early 1970s:

An interesting side note is that at the time, late '60s and early '70s, Thai boxing was being continually challenged by outside martial arts. Dec. 1973 saw the first of "leading exponents" of kung-fu from Hong Kong knocked out in the first round. The defeated fighters claimed to be at a disadvantage by having to wear gloves and being unfamiliar with Thai rules. A revenge match, this time allowing bare hands, was accepted by the Thais, and this match took place January 22, 1974 as part of the Chinese New Year celebration. Five kung-fu experts from Hong Kong arrived bare fisted and were quickly devastated by the Thai boxers, the fights lasting only six minutes and twenty-two seconds (0:06:22) total! All the fighters were knocked out in the first round.

Taken from "A Narrative History of Lotus" by Roy G. Harrington

http://www.lotusselfdefense.com/HistoryLong.html

4. The fact that there appear to be very few (if any) successful CMA practitioners in MMA/NHB competition.

Other things that make me dubious as to the effectiveness of current Chinese arts are:

1. The fact that shuai jiao exponents have now turned to other arts (judo, catch, & BJJ), in order to add the groundwork that was previously lacking in their system.

2. Related to the above is Robert W. Smith's observation that shuai jiao is inferior to judo overall--he once worked with Shang Dongsheng's top guys, and, even using their rules (no chokes, locks, or groundwork), he found his judo to be more effective. Considering that Smith seems otherwise enamored with the Chinese arts, I find this rather significant.

3. The fact that san shou, one of the ostensibly Chinese methods which appears effective, looks suspiciously like Thai boxing, with standing grappling thrown in.

________________________________


As you can see, Q is implying that CMA is either inferior or ineffective. What are your opinions on these matters??

As this topic can be pretty controversial or subjective in context, I respectfully request everyone to give his opinions in a polite, professional, and objective manner....

Let me thank you all in advance for whatever feedback you can give....



Sincerely
Thomas Chen

[lkfmdc]

I am going to assume that "Q" is a MMA guy, I've seen this sort of thing before. Here are a few answers to stuff he has posed

- 1. The fact that the vast majority of kung-fu exponents don't even engage in free-sparring (and this is acknowledged by people within the CMA community....

Well, as I have said, this IS true and it sucks and it's a major reason why people can't use their skills. But if you want to **** him off, ask why BJJ people never start sparring from a standing position and never spar with striking? He'll invariably tell you that SOME do, and you can reply "SOME TCMA people do as well"

- 2. The emphasis that is often placed on the unproven and fantastical, as opposed to sound combative principles and techniques.

As opposed to "I will just shoot in off your first punch and take you down"? Every tradition has yahoo's, sadly, TCMA has a LOT

- 3. The results of the two famous tournaments that took place between kung-fu exponents and Thai boxers, in the early 1970s:

Every time a style wants to hype itself, it claims it beat the "masters" of another style. Anyone ever see "Fighting Black Kings" the Kyokushinkai propoganda movie? 5 complete idiots from Hong Kong were brought to the tournament, they looked like it was a parady, it was pathetic, so sad it even detracted from the movie because it was so apparent it was a set up. Statistics are on Muay Thai's side but if you want to **** your friend off you can find the Chinese guys who HAVE beaten Thais at www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda

- 4. The fact that there appear to be very few (if any) successful CMA practitioners in MMA/NHB competition.

Actually, this is bull sheet. Tell him about the IVC where 3 San Shou fighters KO'd Gracie Barra students. Or the amateur san shou world champion who is undefeated in RINGS. Or Scott Sheeley's MMA debut in Korea. Or Mike Altman's guys winning the Texas Pancrase event, etc etc etc etc

- 2. Related to the above is Robert W. Smith's observation that shuai jiao is inferior to judo overall--he once worked with Shang Dongsheng's top guys, and, even using their rules (no chokes, locks, or groundwork), he found his judo to be more effective. Considering that Smith seems otherwise enamored with the Chinese arts, I find this rather significant.

Smith is full of crap, pure and simple. Because of Chang's issues with Cheng Man Ching, Smith was kicked out of Chang's pressence rather quickly, and he held a grudge for years. Smith says some pretty funny stuff, showing how clueless he really is. He says Shuai Jiao doesn't have O Soto Gari, when in fact Diagonal Cutting which is like the 3rd technique taught is exactly that. Smith can be a tool and you have to know his ulterior motives when you read him

- 3. The fact that san shou, one of the ostensibly Chinese methods which appears effective, looks suspiciously like Thai boxing, with standing grappling thrown in.

People who say this demonstrate that they know nothing about EITHER san shou OR Muay Thai.....

[neigung]

The only part that I'm going to bother commenting on is the shuai jiao:
First and foremost, Robert Smith did not master shuai jiao nor study it for any length of time. Nor does he mention the length of time he studied. The amount of time he studied was insignificant when compared to the 8 - 10 years required for "black belt" level.
Also at the end of the story he mentions using a standard judo breakfall rather than the shuai jiao one and shearing the bone in his elbow. Think this would have happened if he had used the SJ style breakfall? I don't think it would have.
As for shuai jiao exponents turning to other arts for supplemental knowledge...
First and foremost, who are these so-called exponents? Who have they trained under?
And since when is cross-training looked down upon in the MMA world? I guess maybe it's just because it's a CMA that's doing the cross training.
Along that line of thinking, Muay Thai is ineffective because it doesn't contain ground work or throws.
Actually, I will comment on the CMA vs. MT; who were these so called "leading exponents" of CMA in the first place? What gives them the status of "leading exponents"? Who did they train under? How hard did they train?
If you're going to judge an entire MA by a few fights, then you'd better know the facts of both sides, otherwise your logic is flawed and your judgment is unsound.

[neigung]

Good info LKFMDC.
Thanks for the link.

[Chinwoo-er]

I won't comment on his opinion, but I would like to say that style vs style debates have been around every since martial arts were systematized. There will always be people who believe that some style is better than others. The probably have good reasons, or they may just need an ego boost and/or self verification.

In either case, I wouldn't take his words too seriously Mr. Chen.
The best way to 'prove' a theory is to take part in it. Train hard and exchange knowledge with nice, respectable MA people from both MMA and TCMA. After you have acquired skill and wisdom, make the judgement yourself.

Although I would give you a warning, your judgement, no matter which side it leans towards, is prune to change with experience.

Regards

[BAI HE]

Ross-

Good post. You're posts are getting better and better. Now if you weren't a Yanks fan? You might be okay.

Cheers,
Pete

[BAI HE]

I will also add that R.W. Smith, so quick to call others "Boxers of the Mouth corners" will forever be recognized as the biggest of them all. As a literary spectator of MA's he has no peer. He did not have Draeger's skill but sure liked to surf his coat tails.

Smith can talk about "It" something fierce, fact is? He never got "it". As a writer judging a writer? He is peerless in form, about as honset as Nixon and as literate as the day is long.

It syill does not make him a martial artist of note.

[Mo Ling]

Smith's writing are pretty cool if taken in the context of the authors experience and time. His writing does however reek of a kind of oriental exoticism which I personally think is a bit dated. It also just seems fairly apparent from reading his book, if you have any decent experience in Chinese martial arts, that he really did not have any decent experience at least of developing any chinese martiall art to its more advanced potential.
Basically there is a lot of wasted arguement out there about styles etc, but it is very easy to see how extremely effective and tough Chinese Shuai Jiao is. I dont personally practice it but have seen enough of it here in Beijing to comment. That stuff is just downright mean, strong and serious. It is not hard to know this. If you think it is no good, that can only mean you have not seen it done well, or you just totally dont understand it.

Every style has its own preferences and methods, most of them will be effective in certain situations and lacking in others, and this is equally dependent on who is using the art. This equally applies to Japanese, Korean, and other martial arts. it is actually a fairly impossible arguement to make unless you blur or skew the facts...or just completely lack them...perhaps all of those techniques have been used to make the above arguement.



www.taijigongfu.com

[No_Know]

Q's comments:

"1. The fact that the vast majority of kung-fu exponents don't even engage in free-sparring (and this is acknowledged by people within the CMA community...."


In pointing out that CMA is inferior or ineffective Q notes CMA's lack of practice in free-sparring. Free-sparring, which in itself is inferior or ineffective to complete comprehension of life and death fighting.

Free sparring can include safety equipment timed session and people trying not to hospitalize you or make it so that you cannot go into work the next day or so. It is a common stereotype that Kung-Fu exponents do forms--linked techniques. The techniques are of a nature related to fighting.

Every encounter seemingly has variables. With variables can go risks. Doing a practice which can bring about the very harm you would avoid might seem to reach out for your own doom. Oposed to studying what you should avoid and becomming stronger and More capable of body and will to meet the Occasional theoretical threats one might not even ever encounter.

A guarantee might suggest that a product can fail or that you might think a product can fail. Will I train for the one to few potentially lethal people encounters I might get in my Lifetime? Undetermined If I could get that specific training. But if my training was broad enough I could find enough familiar that I can better cope than if I had Not learned Kung-Fu.

Any devoting of myself could strengthen my body and mind. But Their attacks are likely to be recognizable since Kung-Fu has that in it's methods. It has attacks, defenses, openings, ntiming, environment awareness, moving urgently...Biking I would be muscular, but not have the sense of what to do with it as I get from Kung-Fu (Chinese).

Not guaranteed success. However improved chances for succeeding.

To Know that the vast majority does not engage in free-sparring would seem to require knowing at Least the majority of Kung-Fu exponents there-by at least bringing doubt to this thing Q referrs to as a the fact.


"2. The emphasis that is often placed on the unproven and fantastical, as opposed to sound combative principles and techniques."

A person not accustomed to sound combative principles and techniques, upon being aware of them might think of them as being fantastic(al).

"3. The results of the two famous tournaments that took place between kung-fu exponents and Thai boxers, in the early 1970s:
http://www.lotusselfdefense.com/HistoryLong.html"

"There was this fellow, lets call him Q, who had posted some interesting comments on the current state of Chinese martial arts on another forum." Current, and yet Q cites an event around trirty years old.

"4. The fact that there appear to be very few (if any) successful CMA practitioners in MMA/NHB competition. "

The practioners of MMA/NHB use different sources for their training hence the mixed. It is my comprehension that in general they stereotypically prefer what works over knowing it's origins. A majority of MMA/NHB practitioners could very well be CMA practitioners Because of their mixing without concern for source.

"Other things that make me dubious as to the effectiveness of current Chinese arts are:

1. The fact that shuai jiao exponents have now turned to other arts (judo, catch, & BJJ), in order to add the groundwork that was previously lacking in their system."

Is this an over-all occurance as a movement of the Art? Or a promotional reaching out for students who are more familiar with other arts?

"2. Related to the above is Robert W. Smith's observation that shuai jiao is inferior to judo overall--he once worked with Shang Dongsheng's top guys, and, even using their rules (no chokes, locks, or groundwork), he found his judo to be more effective. Considering that Smith seems otherwise enamored with the Chinese arts, I find this rather significant."

Enamored, alog with Love can go jeolousy or Spite. He found his judo to be more effective yet there is no mention that he Won nor that he won well. Merely that he liked His effort. Losers can be delusional. Also, this is an instant. There is more to the World than those few people.

If he was a guest they might have been instructed to not hurt him~There is more to the fighting than fighting for Kung-Fu (Chinese) one might think.

"3. The fact that san shou, one of the ostensibly Chinese methods which appears effective, looks suspiciously like Thai boxing, with standing grappling thrown in."

Look at older Muay Thai hands and later San shou hands. Supposedly all punch fighting theoretically look alike. But the training might give you differences. And The Kung-Fu background might show through in how the San Shou person uses their hands an How they kick.

A shallow pool with dark painted sides and bottom can Look the same as a deep pool with dark painted sides and bottom to an observer or from certain vantage points. Entering the water can be profoundly informative. How you enter the water and how far can infleunce your perceptions-ish.


"As you can see, Q is implying that CMA is either inferior or ineffective. What are your opinions on these matters?? "


Kung-Fu is Chinese. The Chinese culture is over four eons and still around. Kung-Fu in a variety is also still around. As to it's inferiority or ineffectiveness perhaps consider its steadfastness.

The inferior or ineffectiveness of which Q speaks might have best been proven true if there was No Kung-Fu around about which to upon look-down. Because of it's inferiority and ineffectiveness it would have ceased being used and would no longer be practiced in great numbers if at all.

To call something comming from a culture that is fourthousand plus years and alive inferior or ineffective might seem itSelf questionable.~ish.

Kung-Fu (Chinese) For what I might comprehend of the non-sell stuff; body development, self-development, Self-development, Humility, work ethic, tools to handle Life situations--patience, presence of mind, strategies in physical realms, strategies in mental/psychological realms, strategies in emotional realms...There is more than fighting to fighting with (Chinese) Kung-Fu. -ish -ish

Perhaps some-might say.

"Sincerely
Thomas Chen"

I No_Know

[MonkeySlap Too]

Which Shuai Chiao guys play with MMA guys?

Well I do for one. And I encourage my students to also...

Why? Well because if you are not going to kill somebody - i.e. plant his head in the ground, or gut him like a trout (two things I'm already goods at), it seems logical to understand the ground game - so you can at least avoid being a tool if you f@ck up and end up on the ground.

Does that make me 'impure' - well, I could care less. I study fighting. Shuai Chiao rocks in stand up as far as I'm concerned. I've played with all kinds, and frankly I haven't seen a better skill set - when it is taught well.

WD - This guy is a student under my group - He wants to ring fight - I told him he needs a coach - period. His SC teacher moved to New York, the other guys are not as active or too far away. I LIKE Muay Thai - it is a great martial sport and art. Like Shuai Chiao, when you say it's name, people give you props immediately. The guy coaching him is 30-0. A young fighter - but he fights shooto. Close enough. Besides Larry is improving THAT guys clinch game. And that is the kind of respect I expect my students to get. I know right now many traditionalists are cringing, wondering how I could send my student to another teacher. Or 'share' our secrets. Get OVER it. If we don't step up and play, CMA will become a fossil. Just as steel sharpens steel, one man sharpens another.

WTF - THAT IS HOW IT WAS DONE 'in the old days.' EXCEPT for the cult-based groups.

Seven Star was evaluating his training options - I pushed him away from CMA where he lives BECAUSE THE QUALITY OF THE JUDO WAS HIGHER than the CMA available to him.

You need to go with what you've got, and not lose opportunities to learn and grow.

I'm still a huge proponent of CMA, but I am dismayed at the mealy mouthed nature of most of the players. I have more respect for a guy like Fa Jing, who is training to learn, but has the cajones to step up and play. And even after getting hurt that way, recoups, and comes back even harder - rather than those that are 'too deadly' to put thier skills to a test.


For that matter - there are a couple guys in my generation from John Wang's group who do it also...and one guy is a Savate player as well - a dang good one.

What kills me is Dr. Wu (My Shuai Chiao teacher) encouraged us to play with anybody - although for the most part, outside of CMA, the only art he really liked was Muay Thai.

COACH ROSS - Great post. I'm going to steal some of that...

[MonkeySlap Too]

BTW - I think it is important to note here, that I see a huge variance between sport fighting, and actual fighting. But I firmly beleive that sport fighting is a critical drill for developing true fightuing skills.

You just can't fall into the trap of fighting for the rules.

[Shooter]

Thomas Chen, I think Q raises some valid points.

In response to Q's points:

1)- Freesparring is no guarantee that skill-sets will be refined, or even developed. It has to reflect the nuances and flavor. Properly structured sparring is the key to preserving the integrity of a given system's principles and methods.

2)- This is the teacher's fault. It's the teacher's teacher's fault...and all the way back to whomever allowed the fighting method oftheir particular art/system to atrophy from negligence and complacence.

3)-Proves nothing.

4)-I'm 9-8 in MMA. A guy from my school who trained nothing but Chi Kung and TCC, beat one of Randy Couture's Team Quest fighters in MMA a couple of years ago.

Your points:

1)-When I first opened my own TCC school, I began really working on the Fast-wrestling set based on my TCC's shuai-chiao and chin-na components.
Then I wanted to see how what I'd developed would stack up in MMA, and against good BJJ players in a more specialized format.

Lots of guys from my school have traveled around competing in sub-wrestling and have done exceptionally well considering that we don't train specifically for any kind of sport-fighting. We just practice Tai Chi and Chi Kung with an emphasis on structured sparring which is congruent with TCC's principles and methods.

Aside from my modest background in wrestling, I developed my school's Tai Chi Fast-wrestling set in a virtual vacuum. LOL...because I wanted it to be distinctly Tai Chi.

2)-Means nothing.

3)-No comment.