Source of Shaolin-Do Willfull Ignorance

[MasterKiller]

Not to take away from the huge body of really good Chinese martial arts, It is just that I do not buy into that general idea that they all come from China or they all come from Shaolin.

I think when most people say this, they really mean China (Shaolin, in particular) is the symbolic birthplace of all Asian martial arts. Everyone knows people fought inside/outside China well before Shaolin ever adopted a martial program, but in modern times, most people associate "martial arts" with Pan-Asian fighting styles; and since Shaolin is really where the study of Asian fighting styles was refined, it becomes the symbolic motherland.

[David Jamieson]

well, symbolically, it is even dangling on a thin thread

consider this, Shaolin is Buddhist first, martial second.

Buddhism is an Indian import and India has as long a martial history if not longer than the codified arts of china.

It's first patriarch was Indian/persian and he instructed the chinese in indian methdos of exercise.

Many Martial arts in China had their origins in the military, the Mongol military that is to say and way before the advent of the Shaolin temple.

the Taoists also had martial arts before shaolin as did the mohists and even the Chinese themselves as far back as teh mysts of time go in it's history.

Shaolin became famous because of the skills developed by the monks in the temple, only those monks in certain periods of history who were involved in the anti Qing revolution or the security of the temple (which at times was incredible wealthy) were the actual so called "martial monks.

Kungfu is holistic afterall and the orginal intent imo was to make the monk aware that as a being they are physical, mental and spiritual and not just mental and spitritual or spiritual and physical or any other combination which is according to the ideal, incomplete.

in the west, we didn't know scat about asian martial arts as widely as is known now until after WW2, and the diaspora of the ideas reached a peak, although a thoroughly misconstrued, egrigious and selective peak with the advent of chop sockey flicks from the shaw brothers, mixed philosophy soup shows such as Kungfu with David Carradine and finally the big entree "Enter the dragon" with Bruce Lee. Probably the most widely seen and influential Kungfu movie made to date.

Even today people will argue endlessly about what kungfu is. lol.
To these folks, I say, "just sit down, close your eyes and clear your mind".

There is great value in Kungfu practice, it doesn't even have to have anything todo with Chinese martial arts to achieve Kungfu in your life. THat is the one thing that people seem to miss as they are all caught up in the strings and mindtraps of what they think it's "supposed" to be.

cheers

[Tak]

Originally posted by shaolinarab
the article on authenticity is indeed interesting and useful for a beginning student, but it is not right in my opinion to speak in such absolutist terms, as it comes off arrogant, misleading, and even incorrect at times. just three cases in point. we've belabored the issues of either sais, nunchukus, or even colored sashes being used in CMA schools (especially the rank sashes), and the author is presumptuous to automatically dismiss any school that does any of those things.

I don't think he's saying, "Any one of these things means that the school is not CMA and should be burned to the ground." He's setting guidelines for identifying characteristics that should warn people that a school is not what it claims to be. Additionally, to compete with the booming popularity of non-CMA schools, some CMA schools are starting to adopt things like rank sashes or uniforms (not do-gi style ones). On the other hand, if a supposed CMA school flags several of these warning signs, some further questioning might be in order.

[Judge Pen]

I know that my first teacher rarely used any Chinese names except for the names of the forms he was teaching. He was an American who learned from Sin The. There were exceptions (La Na Cha for the spear) but He either didn't know the Chinese terms or simplified our instruction and didn't use them.

What's interesting is that I recently saw a video of Sin The teaching Pa Kua. He had advanced students doing the form on his call and he was calling out the palm changes in Chinese. This video, was circa 1982.

[themeecer]

All right JP .. where did you get such a cool tape?!?!?! I would kill to see that tape ... starting with serpent. Hehe Nah. But I would really like to see that tape. We may have to compare video libraries someday.

[illusionfist]

Kung Lek has a good point and it reminded me of something that I often think about in regards to Shaolin and the integration of philosophies/ religions within martial arts.

If we are to associate Shaolin with all martial arts in China, we are ignoring a huge amount of the populace that cultivated martial understanding in other parts of the country outside of its walls and philosophy. If we believe that martial arts were truly integrated with philosophy and religion, then Taoism would have been integrated with martial arts at least 600 years before Buddhism ever stepped foot in China. This is something that also makes me disbelieve the whole "martial university" mystique that is being propagated by SD. The dissemination of the arts and their inclusion within certain philosophies and religions took centuries to actualize. Couple this with the fact that Shaolin itself wasn't that organized and its very existence was actually quite anomalous. Add the fact that other philosophies were more prevalent and were around long before Shaolin and you can see that Shaolin isn't as big as what it's made out to be. This makes the idea of a whole system of Shaolin temples around the land quite preposterous.

In many ways, the affiliation to Shaolin represented an ideal more than an actual body of knowledge. This was more prevalent in the south during the Ching dynasty. The fist did not represent the teachings of Shaolin, but it was a way to rally yourself alongside like minded individuals in overthrowing the Ching. This is another thing that makes the "university system" idea very unlikely since their existence depended on their inclusion into secret societies, the adoption of aliases, and overall secrecy to insure they wouldn't get caught by Ching officials or enthusiasts.

Peace

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by illusionfist
This is something that also makes me disbelieve the whole "martial university" mystique that is being propagated by SD.

In my understanding, this theory is based upon two things: 1. The integration of other temple, even taoist temples into shaolin (there has been support for this idea outside of SD) and 2. the assimilation and practice of other arts at shaolin. Folk masters, refugees, etc. would visit temples or otherwise encounter monks and exchange material and information. The resulting hybridization wouldn't be pure shaolin, but it still has a direct link.

Now do I believe that all these temples were opperating at the same time and teaching the material listed at the SD sites? No, but I think that the material we teach can be traced to these various temples at some point in their history.

Anyway, maybe I've been drinking too much again.

Flame away.

[Meat Shake]

A lawyer that drinks?
You're out of order! This whole court's out of order!

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Now do I believe that all these temples were opperating at the same time and teaching the material listed at the SD sites? No, but I think that the material we teach can be traced to these various temples at some point in their history.

Very good point. I never really looked at it this way. I think that is probably closer to the truth. I still maintain that some of the temples were concurrently in operation and had some kind of communication and/or exchange of material at times.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
A lawyer that drinks?
You're out of order! This whole court's out of order!

hm....working on that post count, huh ?

[Meat Shake]

D@mn straight.

[MasterKiller]

I still maintain that some of the temples were concurrently in operation and had some kind of communication and/or exchange of material at times.

This is highly speculative. You have any proof in that pudding?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
A lawyer that drinks?
You're out of order! This whole court's out of order!

*hicup* "Your 'Honor' I call Jack Daniels to the stand."

[MasterKiller]

JP at Happy Hour

[Meat Shake]

Hwath? Hese gone?! Then I call Jim Beam!?!? *waves a crooked finger about*