If you don't compete....

[CrippledAvenger]

WD has tag-teamed the Correct and her equally hot twin sister.

Most fighters are humble outside the ring. However, let us make a distinction between the MMA/sportive fan and the fighter (a distinction that is rendered almost unnecessary through the lack of any sort of competition). Fans can be *******es, granted.

Fans also don't have anything but boasting put on the line, so it's a lot easier for them create a dogmatic party line and toe it like a drunken idiot.

Now, let the discussion continue.

FWIW, I agree with Chris on pressure testing, but I vehemently disagree with the idea that competition breeds ego.

Okay, gotta run. Time to look at mug shots.

[Chris_McKinley]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


I don't know about this. In my experience, it's the sport fighting crowd who tend to be humbler. Most of the TMA guys I have met love to talk about how much @ss they can kick. Most of the sports fighters love to talk about who kicked their @ss and how bad they got schooled.

That simply hasn't been my experience, so no biggie. While I have known bungholes in the TMA who let their egos flap in the open like they'd forgotten to zip their fly, I've met far more, percentage-wise, from arts which are considered part of the modern MMA camp. This most definitely includes even the instructors of these arts. Often, half the class is spent training and half is spent deriding the TMA as useless and silly and talking about how much more badass "we" are for practicing our MMA style.

The worst example IME was a school I visited in Texas in '96 which taught BJJ, Muay Thai and Boxing. I walked in and the students and the instructor, a Gracie brown belt, were engaged in a loud conversation before class about how TMA suck and can't fight, etc. The instructor stopped the denigration long enough to greet me and we arranged for me to participate in an introductory BJJ class. I explained that I was only a TMA guy so not to expect too much. As some MMA places are stereotypically wont to do, these guys started ramping up the intensity to embarrass the new guy. Eventually, the instructor called me over to "show me the difference in how BJJ would respond to how TMA does it". This meant that he intended to rough me up and embarrass me into converting to MMA from whatever I was.

He started out by having me throw a Karate punch (why Karate???) and he tossed me on my face and got the rear naked choke on me from top back. Nice. He says, "that's what we do to traditional Karate...it's bullsh*t". I let him use me as a dummy once more while he did a double leg on me and knocked the wind out of me with the takedown. He then told me, "see...you don't have sh*t...you need to train with us if you want something real". I said it was very impressive and that I could see how a typical Karate guy would be in trouble. He smiled, thinking he had made his point and had me go again...this time he said he'd show me a submission. Anyway, after I choked him out, I hurriedly grabbed my bag and took off, not wanting anymore to do with this kind of crap. His students, fortunately for me, gave me a wide enough berth to get out of there when I said that all I wanted to do was leave.

I realize that this is an extreme example, but only in behavior. The attitude is just as strong at most other MMA schools I've been to.

[Water Dragon]

So your saying you choked out a BJJ Brown Belt? Cool! What was his name/name of school. Or if you don't remember, what city were you in?

[Chris_McKinley]

His name was Grundy or Gandy or something like that. It was in north Dallas area, maybe Richardson area. That's about all I remember about it. The place was in a strip mall on the east side of the highway by a car dealership. Anyway, it was nowhere near as impressive as it sounded. He simply underestimated me and didn't see it coming. However, he also had something similar planned for me as far as I could tell, so I simply took the surprise and got out. Had he known I was anything but his stereotype of a Krotty guy, he most certainly would have dusted me, if my experience with other BJJ browns, even purples, is any measure. I suck at it...I just think it's cool to study.

[Suntzu]

Often, half the class is spent training and half is spent deriding the TMA as useless and silly and talking about how much more badass "we" are for practicing our MMA style.

[Merryprankster]

There is something a bit more important re: competition that nobody has touched on--we've talked around it, but not right at it.

At its core, fighting is a relationship. It's not necessarily a positive one, but it IS a relationship between two people about WHO BEATS WHO. It IS comparative. It's not about "attaining your potential." It's about winning. It's about who is better that day--perhaps even on any given day. I mean, kick him in the jimmy and run is nice and it's what we all strive for--but some time, you may run into a situation where issuing a beatdown is the only way to go.

If some TMA types don't like that, it's because they bought into a great deal of bull****.

Now, this doesn't mean that you can't do the MA's for some other reason--but if you want to have fighting skill then it's vital to get into "who beats who" at some point. You've got to be exposed to that environment (within reason--no barfights! ). Sparring often just isn't the same. You really have to have a special set of training partners that can make sparring like a competition without letting ego become involved.

You don't HAVE to compete...but I think the benefits outweigh the negatives.

[Chris_McKinley]

Merryprankster,

RE: "At its core, fighting is a relationship. It's not necessarily a positive one, but it IS a relationship between two people about WHO BEATS WHO. It IS comparative. It's not about "attaining your potential." It's about winning. It's about who is better that day--perhaps even on any given day.". This is only true in a non-lethal combat context. REAL life-or-death combat is not about relationships, self-actualization, or attaining your potential. It isn't about beating somebody. It's about neutralizing the threat, period. If this includes "winning", letting someone know they've been beaten, killing someone, maiming someone, poisoning someone, or whatever, that's fine, but it's merely a consequence of neutralizing the threat. In real combat, fixating on beating someone can get you dead. For military personnel, it's about accomplishing the mission objectives. For civilians, it's about surviving as intact as possible long enough to return to the safety of a normal life.

RE: "I mean, kick him in the jimmy and run is nice and it's what we all strive for--but some time, you may run into a situation where issuing a beatdown is the only way to go.". Absolutely agreed. And of course, even then, it's not about beating somebody. It's about neutralizing the threat. If this can be accomplished by nancying up in a dress and running down the street in high heels, so be it. If it must be accomplished by severing his carotid artery, so be it.

RE: "If some TMA types don't like that, it's because they bought into a great deal of bull****.". Once again, agreed. For years before the UFC came along, I went around claiming that most martial arts, as practiced, were absolute bullsh*t in real combat. They still are, unfortunately.

RE: "...but if you want to have fighting skill then it's vital to get into "who beats who" at some point.". Close, but not quite. It's vital to get into pressure testing your skills until you can successfully use them against full resistance. If this means "beating" someone else in the process, that's fine, but it's secondary.

RE: "You've got to be exposed to that environment (within reason--no barfights! ).". I more or less agree. I've been in situations that make barfights look like warmup practice.

RE: "Sparring often just isn't the same. You really have to have a special set of training partners that can make sparring like a competition without letting ego become involved.". I agree 100%....if maximizing your functional combat skill is the primary objective, this simply HAS to be done. There is no mystical or osmosis-based substitute.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Here's te way I see it. If you want to be able to use your art, you must compete for a period of time. Competition does not mean it must be the UFC, or Pride, or Pro San Shou or Muay Thai. It doesn't even have to be in public. You can compete within your own school.

I think the problem is that a lot of people think they can learn how to fight without fighting. That they can gain a useable grasp of their art without ever facing the risk of a busted lip, a black eye, a broken bone, or a badly bruised ego. This is just not true.


That being said, no one is going to be out there competing their whole life. It's something you do and then move on. If you don;t want to compete, that's cool. Just understand that there will be limitations as to how good you can become.

Agreed...with but with some clarification...the way I teach free sparring (no equipment, full speed, everything goes except for eye/throat/groin contact...but still targets, just no contact to these areas) is you are not competing against anyone...but you are practising to make the art work for you instead of resorting to a 'brawl'. Your partner is your feedback...it is a learning situation and not a competition. It is an opportunity for the Sifu and the student to find the student's strengths and weaknesses (and to improve on them) in as close to a real streetfighting situation as possible. This is the closest senario to prepare the student for the harsh realities of defending oneself on the street. My Sifu prepared me this way and it works (saved my life on more than one occassion). I continue to teach my students this way. On the otherhand...tournament competition with tag matches, rules such as no head hand strikes, no strikes to the back, groin etc. do not prepare the student for successfully defending themself on the street. Even with the new 'no equipment matches' such as the Gracies promoted, there are rules that put the match into the realm of 'not being prepared for the street' and also favoured the grappler, although it was a lot more realistic than regular tournament competition, however based on priniples...I am not in agreement with the concept of these matches.
Yes there are some techniques which are too dangerous (every art has them) and cannot be used in anything but life and death street self-defense.
The only one a student really has to compete against is himself...to be the best he can be physically, spiritually and mentally and to do so with integrity and honor.

GHD

[rogue]

Some good stuff guys.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon


Agreed...with but with some clarification...the way I teach free sparring (no equipment, full speed, everything goes except for eye/throat/groin contact...but still targets, just no contact to these areas) is you are not competing against anyone...but you are practising to make the art work for you instead of resorting to a 'brawl'. Your partner is your feedback...it is a learning situation and not a competition. It is an opportunity for the Sifu and the student to find the student's strengths and weaknesses (and to improve on them) in as close to a real streetfighting situation as possible. This is the closest senario to prepare the student for the harsh realities of defending oneself on the street. My Sifu prepared me this way and it works (saved my life on more than one occassion). I continue to teach my students this way. On the otherhand...tournament competition with tag matches, rules such as no head hand strikes, no strikes to the back, groin etc. do not prepare the student for successfully defending themself on the street. Even with the new 'no equipment matches' such as the Gracies promoted, there are rules that put the match into the realm of 'not being prepared for the street' and also favoured the grappler, although it was a lot more realistic than regular tournament competition, however based on priniples...I am not in agreement with the concept of these matches.
Yes there are some techniques which are too dangerous (every art has them) and cannot be used in anything but life and death street self-defense.
The only one a student really has to compete against is himself...to be the best he can be physically, spiritually and mentally and to do so with integrity and honor.

GHD

As has been pointed out though, you can't really get the full effect merely from sparring in your school. That is a group of guys that you train with regularly. They tend to cooperate way more than someone from another school, especially in competition. Also, when you train with the same people, you begin to know them, and it makes fighting them somewhat predictable, as you know what to expect from them. This is where you can see high value in competition.

[Serpent]

Or open sparring nights. It doesn't have to be competition.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

They tend to cooperate way more than someone from another school, especially in competition.

that's true, but if it's really as hard core as he says im not cooperating nothin when the dude's about to blast me bare fisted.

i don't really spar like that though. without gloves it's always been considerate to the head even if it's full contact to the body.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


I don't know about this. In my experience, it's the sport fighting crowd who tend to be humbler. Most of the TMA guys I have met love to talk about how much @ss they can kick. Most of the sports fighters love to talk about who kicked their @ss and how bad they got schooled.

I've had the same experience. It seems to me that the ones who aren't testing themselves are the ones who tend to have ego probs, and that's because they've neve actually put their ego on the line. I've met more TMA than sport fighters who fall into that category.

I've told the story of when I left CMA and started in bjj. The guys at CMA were all "bjj is crap, we grapple too" (even though with the limited judo I had, I could take most of them easily) "boxers just stand there and slug eachother, there's no skill involved", etc. From previous experience with grappling and muay thai, of course I knew those comments were bunk. When I got to bjj, I expected the same thing from the bjj guys, but they were actually eager to see what my CMA was about, then started sharing things from their traditional backgrounds. They acknowledged that there is alot of crap out there, but if you have something that works, then by all means use it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Serpent
Or open sparring nights. It doesn't have to be competition.

open sparring nights are great. I still give competition the edge though, because there's that drive to win, which will make both fighters try that much harder.

[red5angel]

Competing for medals or honors is most certainly not the definition of a good martial practitioner. All the guys claiminig their arts are more then anyone elses because they compete and take medals are as bad as any other artist who claims his art is too deadly to practice in the ring.

The only key is at some point you must test your skill, in the ring, on the mat, in the kwoon/dojo, it doesn't matter to me, just test it and become confident in it.