If you don't compete....

[CrippledAvenger]

And by the same token, playing with other schools only helps CMA get recognized and appreciated. I've changed my mind about a lot of my preconceptions of CMAs by playing with and learning some Shuai Chiao, as are some of the other MMA guys after they see WD.

You get much respect by dishing out a good beating and taking yours like a man in my circles, and thus far I've been lucky to find gung fu guys interested in doing those two things.

[Water Dragon]

Awww shucks, it's not me. It's the big

BOOM

sound that you keep making when you hit the mat.

[CrippledAvenger]

The Raise = best recruiting tool ever!

[Ikken Hisatsu]

to be honest I feel that getting in the ring is an integral part of any martial art training. not even so much for developing your techniques (which does come into it but most places bar a lot of moves because they are quite dangerous, so it tends to be just throws/punches/kicks, not learning how to break someones arm on your leg) but to learn what it is like to be in a fight. how to read other people, how to react without just flailing your arms, how to keep control when the adrenalin is pumping- things that simply cannot be taught any other way.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
to be honest I feel that getting in the ring is an integral part of any martial art training. ... things that simply cannot be taught any other way.

Are you talking the ring like in a tournament competition or a good sparring session?

Sparring is a tool that can be applied in a variety of intensity levels and for a range of benefits.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you know what's sad ... when thinking about possibly competing i worry more about performing in front of a large crowd than facing a skilled opponent. it makes me nervous.

i have been able to perform fine once i got going in other situations, but i dreaded it most of the day. wierd coming from someone who is such an attention *****.

i don't really consider where i fall in since i dont compete. when im not sick i train hard, spar hard, and do my best not to be comepletely ignorant of reality. i may compete one day but it's not a real big deal to me. i have no desire to ever be a pro fighter or anything so ill be happy if im always able to kick my own ass from a year ago.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

GDA.

I fully understand your feelings.
On Sunday I did a forms demo in front of about 6000 people and plenty of teachers, granted I was one of 112 people in the group.
Doubt if I could have done it solo.

Personally, I think doing a form publicly is more emotional stress than fighting someone.
OTOH, I think I gained something from having done it.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I have to say Im more worried about the other guy when im competing. I mean, the crowd isnt going to start hitting me (I hope)

As for "competing" I should clarify that as sparring. competing in tournaments is great and all but you dont need a medal to know you're a good fighter.

GDA hit the correct spot on- if you can kick yourselfs arse from a year ago then you're on the right track. hard to measure that though

and yeah i get a bit anxious before I start doing a form as well, but once I start it goes into autopilot.

[Kristoffer]

I also feel more nervous coz of the crowd watching me fight than the guy infront of me. It's different in sparring when everyone is there to fight themself.....

[apoweyn]

For me, it's not necessarily about competition. I've never competed much. Performed abysmally at a couple of open point fighting tournaments. (Never was much good at the point fighting.) And fought in a handful of WEKAF stickfighting tournies in the 90s (Catonsville, MD; Jersey City, NJ; and San Francisco, CA).

To my mind, it's more to do with critical thinking. Nothing we do in practice is ever going to mirror the reality of personal combat (thankfully). But we do try and simulate it to one degree or another. The way we simulate it varies considerably among individuals, schools, and systems. But personally, I think that requires sparring. The more permissive in terms of range of techniques and contact level, the better (within reason).

The advantage of a venue like competition is (in my opinion) simply the level of motivation. Sparring in class can often get very cooperative. People trying to help one another. Or simply not going all out on their mates. Whatever. But in competition, the opponents tend to feel no such obligations. Quite the contrary, they're generally very motivated to maul you. That particular condition is something that I think people should have some exposure to (myself included).

Basically, you can't train every variable at the same time. That would be a fight. You can't train kicking to the knee at full power. You can't train eye pokes at full intensity. Etc. You can train those things at low power and intensity with the right safety equipment. But then, to get some exposure to higher contact and intensity, higher motivation to win, etc., competition is a good way to round out your options.

I'll never be an avid competitor. I'm just not that driven to compete. But in terms of breadth of experience, I believe it'll teach you some things that other methods won't (and vice versa).


Stuart B.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger


Which, essentially is the crux of the whole problem of the "sportive" vs. "Traditional" argument anyway. No-one likes having stuff forced down their throat. What you have to realize, LC, is that the TMAs are just as guilty of this as the MMA types. At the core, I think most (there'll always be some outlying schmucks in any camp) MMA's would readily admit that the venue isn't about proving their particular practice superior, it's about being accountable for the claims you make-- something that most legendary fighters out of Chinese history would tend to agree whole heartedly with. Hell, most challenge fights I head of ended quite non-fatally, so I'm guessing the concept isn't very far removed from tradition in the slightest.



I still think you're not quite grasping what I mean by competition. It's not really about winning or losing (except to the fans), but for most fighters, figuring out how they can make their training work and work consistantly in as close an approximation to live hand-to-hand combat as humanely possible.

That reason, to figure out how I can adapt to fighting under pressure and against a determined opponent, is why I'm training for the Arnolds. I could care less if I win or lose, but if I can pull just 3 throws off while in pain and under duress, I'll consider myself satisfied.

good post.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Personally, I have never heard anybody saying that "what they do is too dangerous", etc.

I have.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
you know what's sad ... when thinking about possibly competing i worry more about performing in front of a large crowd than facing a skilled opponent. it makes me nervous.


Trust me - once the match starts, you forget they are there until after it's over.

[Chris_McKinley]

I like a lot of the sentiments which have been posted so far. I think it might even reflect a maturity that's happening to the combined MMA/TMA world overall. When NHB style competition first emerged, it was brash, silly, prone to exaggeration and irrational.....AND, it had a point to make. What I see starting to happen is, as the dust settles, people from both camps are starting to calm down their knee-jerk emotional reactions and give thought to what the other side is saying. As a result, some logic is starting to creep through.

Personally, of the hundreds of martial artists I've met in 29 years of practice, I've known only three who could fight with skill who didn't (to my knowledge) compete at some point in their careers. I competed for several years when I was young in partial and then later, full-contact matches, complete with KO's and serious injuries. However, I'd like to introduce something that many will think of as merely a sematic difference. Namely, there is a difference between competing and pressure-testing. A lot of TMA practitioners react with uneasiness to the idea that, if they don't compete, they won't have functional skill. Not always, of course, but sometimes this reaction is not based in the fear of actual contact but rather to the idea of competing to determine a winner and a loser. Like it or not, competition is a prime example of judging oneself by comparison with others rather than against oneself. The ego gratification that this breeds is objectionable to the TMArtist.

The solution is often in reframing how such training is viewed. Instead of competing, which requires a winner and a loser, one can simply pressure-test what they do in full-contact training without regard to points scored or wins and losses. Depending on the intensity of such training, it can often be continued beyond where many competitors stop. That is, you don't fight until one of you wins...you fight until you can make your skills work, or until one or both of you are simply too tired to continue the session. Such training has nothing to do with winning and losing, which are as relevant to real combat as empty, flowery kata. It has to do with calibrating your ability to realistically evaluate your FUNCTIONAL skill, which is often a different animal from your CLINICAL skill.

Pressure-testing can also be done at a very wide range of intensity, unlike competition. Pressure-testing can be done full-out like NHB tourneys, or it can be focused and isolated to develop a single skill within an environment of resistance.

[Water Dragon]

The ego gratification that this breeds is objectionable to the TMArtist.

I don't know about this. In my experience, it's the sport fighting crowd who tend to be humbler. Most of the TMA guys I have met love to talk about how much @ss they can kick. Most of the sports fighters love to talk about who kicked their @ss and how bad they got schooled.